Turo Virta: 1:07

Welcome back to the Fit Me Turo fitness podcast. If somebody told you that you could get equivalent of hours in the gym from 20-minute workout while wearing a suit that electrically stimulates your muscles, you would probably have some questions. I certainly do. Whole body electrical muscle simulation or VP EMS has become has become increasingly popular as a time efficient way to train. It's often marketed to busy people, adults with joint issues, and people who want to build strength without spending hours in the gym. But how much is that supported by science, and how much is clever marketing. My guest today is Conrad Sanchez. Conrad has a master's degree in kinesiology certifications through organizations including ACSM and NASM, and several years of experience specializing in whole-body EMS training and educating other trainers. Today, I want to take a balanced look at EMS, how it actually works, whether it really recruits more muscle, what the research says about strength and muscle growth, and who may benefit, who should avoid it, and whether 20 minutes of EMS can really replace traditional strength training. Konrad, welcome to the podcast.

Unknown: 2:33

Thank you so much for having me, Turo.

Turo Virta: 2:36

So, Conrad, for someone who has never been or never seen VB EMS before, what exactly is happening during a session?

Unknown: 2:48

So. whole body electrical muscle stimulation, and for short, I'm just going to call it EMS, not to be confused with localized EMS, and not to be confused with M sculpt. But for today's purposes, I'll just call it EMS. But EMS, so the essentially you wear a suit that has electrodes on all the major muscle groups, and it's controlled usually through either an iPad or a console. It has a battery, and it's a 20-minute workout. That, through research studies, some research studies equate the results, the strength results, to an hour and a half, others to three hours. It depends on what specific outcome you're looking for, but essentially it is a workout that's 20 minutes that is short, and it can be as intense as you need it, and it's low impact if you want it.

Turo Virta: 3:49

Awesome. So, what does the electrical stimulus actually do to the muscle?

Unknown: 3:56

So, how you contract muscle is through an electrical signal of your nervous system. So, your nervous system activates muscle fibers; they contract, and then you produce force. This is mimicking that signal and enhancing it, and so it's just a stronger electrical stimulation towards those muscle fibers. And so, when you contract muscle and you're using EMS at the same time, you're just going to contract more muscle fibers. Now, there are claims about contracting 90% 95% those are unfounded. Or any of claimed specific percentages are, I would say, are are marketing jargon. They're not scientific jargon.

Turo Virta: 4:43

Yeah, because that-that's why what I wanted to say that what science equus I hear and see that is there there is like a lot of when people or they are making marketing and claims that EMS really activates 90% of muscle fibers is that yeah

Unknown: 5:03

so I I went down the rabbit hole to find out, like where is this 90% figure coming from? And what I found is that with localized EMS, it it appears as if the electrode can can fire about 90% of muscle fibers underneath the electrode. It doesn't mean that it's that it's firing 90% of the entire muscle. It just means that there, it's firing 90% of the muscle fibers at the at the contact surface of the electrode. But then, how much muscle fibers are you actually contracting? It depends on with your exercise. It depends on the movement. It depends on the weight. If you're adding weight to it, it depends on a lot of things, and there's there's no way to claim like this. Like they're basically shortening the the results of like 90% at the surface at the contact point of the electrode, and saying like oh this it's it's targeting 90% of the muscles. Like this is a. Basically, it's a it's a mis misinterpretation of the data.

Turo Virta: 6:10

Yeah, what what and when those marketers they say that EMS activates muscles we normally can't reach. Is that accurate?

Unknown: 6:21

No, no. It depends on the exercise, right? Like you are going to recruit muscles, and how much muscle fiber you recruits is what determines whether you can lift a pen or you can lift 100 kilos. Right, so the the electrical muscle stimulation, what it does, it can help you activate a lot of these muscles. So if you don't contract yourself, like if you're doing bicep curls, you may not contract your glutes, for example, in in a regular gym session. EMS is going to force you to contract at least some of those muscle fibers in your glutes and your abs and your because everything is going to be turned on. So there is an aspect of involuntary contraction unless you are consciously cued into pre-contract your entire body. Okay, let the stimulation come in. Stimulation contracts more muscle fibers of the muscles that are already contracted. If you're not pre-contracted, that's okay. The the stimulation will contract some of those muscle fibers, but it's not contracting 90% of the muscle, whether you want it or not, this this is this is not true.

Turo Virta: 7:31

So let me challenge you one of the most common EMS claims that can the 20 minutes of EMS genuinely be equivalent to several hours in a traditional scene.

Unknown: 7:45

So as I mentioned in the introduction, they it depends on what study you're looking at, and the studies look at typically strength outcomes. But so they compare. They saw there was a study comparing. I think it was about 16 total hours. So like one group trained for 30 minutes three times a week, the other group did EMS once or twice a week, meaning EMS session was 20 minutes. Sometimes they trained once a week, sometimes they trained two times, so it was either 20 or 40 minutes a week, and the other group was basically doing an hour and a half every week. And by the end of the 16 weeks, the strength results were similar, so comparable. Same with another study comparing it to three hours of strength training. However, in my opinion, that is not an apples to apples comparison. You cannot say that it is. So when you're saying to in order to achieve strength outcomes, then I guess you can you could say it it is equivalent to two three hours, but when you're training for two three hours, you're getting other things than than strength results. You're getting metabolic stress. You're burning more calories. You're enhancing your cardiovascular capacity. You're you're stretching more. You like right like there in one hour, you definitely can do more than what you can do in 20 minutes, and so you're missing out on these peripheral outcomes from training for three hours versus training for 20 minutes. So if you're only looking at strength outcomes, I would say the research is there to support the EMS does produce these results. If you're just saying like it's like three hours at the gym, like well, it depends what you're doing at the gym. Most people go to the gym and spend hours on their phone. So

Turo Virta: 9:39

yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's that's because it's I I wanted to ask that if if it's like like but you explain it so well because there's like it's not only about like like you said that Vita. If you think only strength, maybe it's true. But then there is calorie expenditure, fatigue, muscle activation, and like so many other things what you get. But of course, if you it depends, I guess, on intensity of your workout, like also like what you are doing if you are at the gym, like three hours. I don't think that somebody is like really working really hard and spending three hours at the gym.

Unknown: 10:22

Now, what what I would say is that like not to not to take anything away from EMS, though. The in in my opinion, about two sessions a week with EMS does equate to about three hours of of regular like, and this is what I'm talking about now is strength results and body composition results. And so I put the the equivalents closer to an hour and a half of spending time at the gym, because EMS immediately does do does make everything a little more intense because you're contracting the entire musculature at once, and that that raises the intensity of as if you were doing. A plank for for 20 minutes, like that, you would be exhausted for most people, right? But but what what it what it does, and where where I think the marketing of a lot of studios are missing out is not so much about comparing it to to hours at the gym or or percentages of of muscle fiber activation, which no one has cared about in the history of training. It's more about what problems does EMS solve, and EMS allows, in my opinion, makes exercise a lot more accessible to a lot more

Turo Virta: 11:46

people

Unknown: 11:46

because it is shorter. You are getting strength results, which are usually the goal of many people to just get stronger. Especially, like you mentioned, like over 40 years old, like this is becomes even more and more important. And EMS can be low impact because the stimulation is directly on the muscle. So if you're not moving through full range of motion, if you're not lifting heavy, heavy weights, it doesn't matter. You're still getting an activation and a stimulation of your muscles, and I mean something we've not discussed on a technical side. EMS, wherever the electrode is, it's going to fire muscle fibers, whether they're type one or type two, and and this I think is where EMS shines is in getting people stronger from day one, right? Like we, I worked as a personal trainer. You're a personal trainer, right? Like if you get someone that is 60 years old has never lifted a weight, and they're like, "Okay, my doctor told me I have osteoporosis. I need to start training. You would not immediately be like,"Okay, you know what? Squats 150 kilos, right? Like you would have to start like body weight, and then over weeks and weeks and weeks, start adding weights. Would you give strength, actual strength training from the first very first session?

Turo Virta: 13:12

Wow! Yeah, it's it's. What about then? If let's say someone who have experience already with weightlifting, like for example, I take myself. I'm male, 44 years old, and if my goal would be hypertrophy, could 120-minute EMS workout genuinely replace several conventional strength sessions?

Unknown: 13:41

I would say, if for someone that like you, my recommendation, like you're already doing strength training, you're already doing hypertrophy work. EMS can I would have it as an add-on, as a as a complement rather than than a replacement, and I would have it as a complement for one to avoid so much load on your joints. Right, I'm I'm I'm in my 40s too. I I know

Turo Virta: 14:08

what it

Unknown: 14:08

feels like to squat heavy and then be like oh my lower back my knees blah blah. And so EMS would allow you to have an intense workout with no joint load. So it would prolong your your longevity in terms of training. The other portion is that if you have issues, and I'm not saying you do, but but like if if if anybody has like like a glute that doesn't activate as well, or or or your core doesn't activate always, or you forget to like when you're doing deadlifts, you forget sometimes braids. Like EMS can help you, can remind you by by activating it, and then and then you can be like, oh yeah, I need to I need to contract my abs as well. So there's certain specific activation techniques that you can do with EMS, and the other portion of this is if you don't have time, then then EMS can be a good substitute for for the workout if like you're like well it's either I don't work out or I just have

Turo Virta: 15:11

to

Unknown: 15:12

postpone the workout then EMS might fit in into your schedule because it's shorter but in all this also if you're just saying like I have the time and I'm injury free great with EMS I've not seen any studies that show a lot of hypertrophy in the bodybuilding sense, right? Like a lot of the studies are done with beginners and and or or soccer players, but they're looking at strength outcomes, right? Like I haven't seen like okay for bodybuilding purposes for strictly hypertrophy. Like are are in we're not talking about people with sarcopenia. We're not talking about we're talking about healthy individuals. They are trained. I haven't seen a study showing hypertrophy results. However, I from anecdotally I would say that I've been using way. With EMS, and this I know, like in Europe, typically they don't use weights with EMS, and and the reason is like, well, you don't need them, and like you're already activating a lot of muscle fibers and so on. However, I use weights because it. I know that using weights will load the bone. Now, I'm not using 100 of the weight. I'm using about 30 to 50 of what the person can usually lift. So that is still a lot less stress on the joint, but it's ensuring an additional. If we're talking about percentages of muscle fibers, like that, that it will contract more muscle fibers, and it will also load the the bone. And in these cases, I do see a lot more hypertrophy results in my class.

Turo Virta: 16:59

Yeah. What about now? It it makes so much sense. Like what you what you explain. Like it's not promising. Like it. not over promising. It says that like for someone, it make now it makes like which I I honestly I have to say that I was little bit suspicious. Like I know I have tried like short session and I I loved it, but it's not. It would. I would never replace it. Like it always depends. But like you explained, that it's it's all like most of the studies they have done with they have they are you know you have done them with more like a beginners, and it's not like someone who is like who's if it would if you would get all the same results also with more experienced lifters, bodybuilders, why the hell they would anyone would work out in traditional way anymore if you would get everything so much easier.

Unknown: 18:01

Well, there, there, there's caveats there. I would say in the bodybuilding world, what I've seen is some bodybuilders using local EMS, so not wearing the full suit, but using old school EMS, and then still lifting as heavy as they can. And it's like if they want to contract certain parts of their lats or glutes, and that I've seen. Now it's not super practical, right? Like you need someone else to control, so you need a lifting partner. They can, they knows how to control it. They can control it. They has a machine. They have the suit. They have right. So it becomes a little more like the practicality in the bodybuilding world. I think is it is there, but like it might not be as easy as just getting going to the gym as you've as you're doing already, right? It's more, and this is not where I think EMS is like the future. Like I think the future is like for all the people that don't go to gym. Yeah, they think they don't have time. They think they're gonna hurt themselves. Like this is who EMS is. Can can shine. Like it can be good for everybody, but but it can be great for ideal for certain people.

Turo Virta: Yeah. One question: 19:12

What I what I'm curious to know is that what can traditional resistance training provide that EMS cannot?

Unknown: 19:23

So good question. Traditional resistance training. So the first thing is that EMS has the electrodes on all the major muscle groups. But for example, a lot of the manufacturers don't make electrodes for the deltoids, or they don't make electrodes for the calves, or right. There are certain muscle groups that are missing from the equation, and other EMS suits do have calves and do have shoulders, but there are certain muscles that might be missing from from a certain suit. That's one one thing. The other thing is that with EMS, you don't you are constantly contracting the entire body, and so you could retrain, but this requires a little more like technique from the trainer. Most EMS studios and most EMS trainers are like you come in, they turn on everything, and and out you go. However, if someone has like problems, like they are overtraining their their hamstrings and not activating their glutes enough, right? And in in teaching sequencing, that you should contract the glutes before the the hamstrings. Like how to teach the sequencing, you could do it with EMS, but it requires a lot more education and like sort of like not turning on the the hamstrings, doing a glute exercise, then turning on the hamstrings very lightly, and so on. One side, I would say it is it can be extremely useful, but it requires education to get there. On the other side, when you're doing. Traditional training, right? You could just jump into a hip thrust machine and then go to to a hamstring curl and and and then you know sort of like teach the person like you should contract the glutes and then. But the thing is like all this you can also do it with a suit and and and so I I don't know how to answer this question. No no it's because anything you can do with traditional training, you can just add a suit to

Turo Virta: 21:29

it. So yeah, yeah, no, makes makes sense. What about then bone density? Bone

Unknown: 21:35

density is is a good one. There's typically EMS manufacturers will point at one or two studies that show slight, but it's very slight increase in bone density using a localized EMS, so NN EMS, and they they. I mean, when I looked at the study, I was like, okay, I mean, it's it's it's a slight improvement, but it's not it's not an expected improvement, and this is the reason why I add weight to to my sessions is to make sure that there's enough load on the on the bone to to stress it because otherwise you're just really only pulling the the bone from one side, not from not from both sides.

Turo Virta: 22:23

So how is how intense is the EMS physio logically, despite being low impact physiologically. So physiologically,

Unknown: 22:36

yeah, you can you can still make it you can make an EMS session high impact. It's just that by making it low impact, you're you're getting the benefit of not loading the the joint, but you can put on a suit and do box jumps if you want, or drop jumps, or you can do whatever you want with the suit as long as you don't break the battery or something. But you can make anything as as intense as you want. Now, EMS is intense and low impact, and and how the the difference there is is that intensity has to do with how much your muscles are working, and impact or low impact is like are you doing like like are you jumping, are you hitting something, and you can do both or or neither with EMS.

Turo Virta: 23:32

Then what about is why is important? Because like I see that EMS studios there is always, or I think at least here in Italy, there's always trainer with you. Why is qualified supervision so important for EMS?

Unknown: 23:51

So it is very important because you could really hurt someone. I mean, in in hurt, you can hurt someone in terms of like in that you can lock some someone else, right? Because you, if you turn up the dial super high, the person can lock out, and that feels scary because you-it's almost-it feels like you lost control of your body. I always tell my clients like you can always override it. You just have to believe that you can, kind of like in the movies. But the the reality is that you can contract muscle and and you could potentially break out of it, but a trainer is going to be there to to like stop it if they if you need to. There are now more and more companies coming out with direct to consumer products, and they have some limitations in terms of like how much you can do it, how how high you can go on the on the levels, but I see this trend just picking up more and more momentum. I don't think there's any stopping it, and I just hope that the regular user will educate themselves a little bit in terms of like how often you should do it, what to avoid and and and seek out a little more information in order to do it safely.

Turo Virta: 25:12

Is there some like I want to talk a little bit about safety also like that? What are like biggest risks when EMS is used incorrectly, or for example, if session is Too intense.

Unknown: 25:28

Yeah, the biggest risk with EMS is rhabdomyolysis. So rabdo was popular popularized by CrossFit by doing an intense workout, and then the next day an intense workout, and then the next day an intense workout, and then you end up in the hospital. So rabdo is when your muscle gets too worked out, and it breaks down into your bloodstream, and then your your bloodstream is full of protein. It overwhelms your kidneys, and you have to be hospitalized and get IV fluid. and And some people have died from from rhabdomyolysis. And how to avoid it is basically if you're doing a. Intense EMS workout one day, you have to rest the next day, and or you you can use EMS, but it has to be on a recovery setting or a cardio setting, basically a setting that is not as intense or not nearly as intense in order to mitigate risk. That's the biggest risk with EMS is overtraining because even though you may not feel like it's an intense workout because you're not lifting a lot of weight and so on, the result in your chemically in your body, your body is producing a lot of creatine kinase, which is an enzyme that elevates after exercise, and some and elevates after any intense exercise, whether you're running a marathon, you're doing a crossroad class or whatever, it will raise, but the next day, like your kidneys basically flush it out and and you're fine. The problem is when you raise it and then raise it again too quickly the next day, and and your your body doesn't have enough time to to flush it out. And so the easiest way to avoid that is don't do EMS every day. At least don't do a strength EMS every day.

Turo Virta: 27:11

Yeah, no, it's probably like it makes makes sense because it's kind of if you if you say that it's you know its impact is the same as let's say one and a half or two hour workout gym session, and you probably wouldn't want to do several two-hour team sessions in a in a right in a day after day. So, is there some like a group like because I what I read is is that beginners they are particularly vulnerable. Why is that?

Unknown: 27:51

Why, why, why are Bitcoin people the more like the biggest target for EMS? No, why

Turo Virta: 27:56

they are like yeah, for safety reasons, like they are vulnerable. Oh, for

Unknown: 28:05

why are Yeah, yeah. Is it

Turo Virta: 28:09

does it make sense? Like, because it's it's kind of the same thing. Like, if beginner is who is working out, like let's like let's take just the example traditional workout. Like beginner, if you are beginner, you probably wouldn't work out, go to the gym every single day for. But even you want to get fast because it's physiologically it's not possible because you're gonna be sore probably after a first gym session. So you need to have that day off or a couple days off before you hit the next session. And maybe, maybe with with the EMS you wouldn't feel the same way. Like you know you feel like it's only 20 minutes. I can do it several days in a row, but

Unknown: 28:51

yeah. So there, there is there is a danger there. That and what I've seen is that with EMS, you're not necessarily sore the next day. You're usually sore two days later. So the next day, a lot of times, like 80% of the people feel like they've done nothing. Like maybe they feel a little activated or so, but the next day, typically you don't feel that soreness that you may feel with traditional training. And I know traditional training. There are some people that feel it two days later. Some people feel the next day. But for the most part, I would say people feel it the next day. With EMS, for the most part, people feel it two days later, and so you can wake up in the morning and feel like, oh, I did EMS yesterday. I don't even feel anything, and then and so in my practice, I've I tell people like, if this is your first session, I'm gonna wait two days to check in with you. I'm not gonna try to sign you on the spot. I'm like, you just did your intro. I'm gonna wait two days, and in two days I'm gonna call you, and then you're gonna let me know how you feel, and then you can come back in if you want.

Turo Virta: 29:52

Yeah. So, how often someone should do investing, in your opinion?

Unknown: 30:00

It depends on what else you're doing in your fitness journey. But if you're not doing anything, my strong recommendation is twice a week. Twice a week gives you all the strength results outcomes that you need. In in my practice, I've seen people do twice a week with one day at least of separation in between, and they've all gotten body composition results, like positive, like losing a little bit of fat, gaining a little bit of muscle, and if you're doing twice a week, then then that's by far the strongest recommendation. If you're doing other things, if you're doing a lot of other things, like you're also lifting once a week or twice a week, or you're doing a lot of High impact exercise, your boxing, your hiking, your like, you're doing a lot of other things. I would say like EMS once a week would be enough, and I would only recommend three times a week if you're looking for a complete body transformation, like you you have a wedding or something like that. That that would be. An occasion why short term you can train three times a week, but otherwise twice a week it should be enough.

Turo Virta: 31:12

Yeah, and then who should not use EMS? Is there some?

Unknown: 31:19

Yeah, there is there is absolute contraindications to EMS, and one is if you're pregnant, you should not do EMS. No research on how it can affect the fetus. Any implanted medical devices that you cannot remove, so something like a pacemaker. You have an insulin pump that that is attached to your body that you cannot take off. Like any any electrical medical devices that you cannot take off, then you should not do EMS because EMS could short circuit. You don't know what the interaction could be. There are other so people with severe cardiovascular disease just because EMS, like I said, can feel intense, and so people with like risk of stroke or so should not do EMS. People with epilepsy, seizures, it could trigger an episode. People with severe kidney disease, as I as I mentioned, the kidney has to flush out the decay levels, so severe kidney disease. People with severe neurological diseases, so so at least here, and I'm talking for the U.S. In Europe, they might have slightly different contraindications, but in the U.S. if you have Parkinson's or so, there there is some research some showing positive results with with people with Parkinson's specifically, but as a as a general rule, the the FDA said like don't go unless you're under medical supervision or something.

Turo Virta: 33:00

So, what about then calorie burn and weight loss? Because I have seen claims that someone can burn 300 to 700 calories in 20-minute emails. I've

Unknown: 33:12

seen up to 1000, so okay, but okay, but but but how

Turo Virta: 33:17

confident are you in those numbers?

Unknown: 33:20

No, no, not not confident at all. I I see them as marketing claims, not is a reality. It depends on the workout. It depends what you do with EMS. It depends on the levels that you go on on EMS. It depends on the person. What I what I tell people when they're like, "Oh, how many calories I burn? I'm like, "This is not the point of this workout. The point of this workout is to get you stronger. If you're here to burn calories, you might as well just go for a run for 20 minutes. Like it's going to be terrible. Ensure you can make it more intense. You can do box jumps for for 20 minutes, and you'll burn a lot of calories. But you're now increasing the impact, and and so on. So and not everybody can do 20 minutes of box jump. So the calories is not so much the the focus. And I try to steer people away from the calories. It's not about the calories, about building stronger muscle. The stronger you are, the more muscle you build. The more muscle you have, the more calories you'll burn doing other things in your life.

Turo Virta: 34:20

Yeah, no, that's so well said. Because I, it's it's funny how like and now all these tracking tools. Like in the beginning of my career, I was also focusing like how many calories I could or my clients could burn in a workout, and now I'm like that. Who cares? Yeah, who cares? Like it's it's so individual. You can't compare. Like of course, if a 50 kilogram woman is doing and next to next to her is someone, some male weighing 150 kilos. They have huge, or obviously, they're you can't repair those calories. Like it's completely

Unknown: 35:02

different.

Turo Virta: 35:03

Yeah, it's other one burns the same amount of calories just being alive for one hour, even while sleeping, and other one like lighter person need to have a pretty intense workout for that hour to be able to burn as many calories as the other person. So it's it's and plus that all those devices what we have they are overestimating so much nowadays. Of course, it's it's the goal of every sport tracker is to make people feel good. And now I I say like it's there were like some studies. I think was it I don't know that was already a couple years ago. Was like average estimate was 27 to 97% of burned calories. They are overestimating. So, if your sport tracker or sport watch is telling that you burned 1000 calories, the truth is maybe half of it. Yeah, it's it's but it's yeah. And I've seen

Unknown: 36:02

yeah, I've seen people where they're. Apple watches or Fitbits or so, and and and sort of like be like, okay, I'm I'm gonna turn it on. First of all, there's no, as far as I know, there's no device that tracks EMS. It's a workout, right? Like all these Apple watches and Fitbits and URL rings, they they you have to set it like, oh, I'm I'm gonna go for a run or I'm gonna lift weights or I'm gonna swim or whatever, but they don't have an option for EMS so it's already gonna you're gonna be tracking a workout that doesn't exist in their data center so so that's gonna already be off and it doesn't like you said it doesn't it doesn't matter. Like what matters is the calorie balance at the end of the day, at the end of the week, not in that workout. You can go ahead and eat a piece of cake, and then you'll you'll you'll recoup all those calories. So it doesn't really matter.

Turo Virta: 37:02

Yeah. No. And it's it's in the end, it comes back to nutrition and overall energy energy balance, and like you said, I I love that because I I think the same way that strength workout is not about burning calories; it's about make you stronger, and which is helping you then in the other areas of life. But during the workout, it shouldn't matter or it doesn't matter how many calories you burn? So, what is is PMS then best considered a replacement or supplement to resistance training in Europe?

Unknown: 37:39

It's a good question. I think it depends on where you are, and I think it depends on how much you're doing already. If if if you're not doing anything, then then EMS is an excellent and I would say ideal and excellent replacement to traditional training, especially for a beginner, or especially if you're injured, or especially if you don't have time, if you have fears around the gym, that you feel intimidated. If you feel like you're going to hurt yourself, like there's a lot of obstacles that EMS can solve, and so in that aspect, I would say it's it's in my opinion a true replacement of any type of traditional training.

Turo Virta: 38:26

And then if

Unknown: 38:28

you are comfortable going to the yeah

Turo Virta: 38:31

yeah no when I my already was in next question that when is then EMX when it's becoming like rehabilitation rather than fitness

Unknown: 38:46

yeah so in in rehabilitation, I've worked at out of a physical therapy clinic in people that needed to do. They have rotator cuff injuries, for example, a very common injury, and they need to be doing this 20 reps and then three sets of 20 reps, and right and they're they're there for like 15 minutes doing different rotator cuff exercises. You could do all those exercises, but wear a suit and still like get a workout out of it. Like you, you'll you'll train your glutes, your abs, your your back, and in addition, you can do your rotator cuff exercises. Right, like so, all your corrective exercises, your physical therapy exercises. You could be doing it while wearing the suit, and you would get basically a two for one. And you are rehabbing, and you're getting stronger in the rest of your body. Now, in you can also affect it directly. Like for example, if someone has lower back pain, there there are a lot of research studies that show EMS helping with lower back. In fact, how EMS started, how whole body EMS started, is from making changes to 10s units. So 10s units, transcutaneous electrical nervous systems. Like these 10s units have been shown to mitigate pain and divert pain, and sort of like alleviate lower back issues, either momentarily or or or forever. And from there, EMS is basically doing very similar things, and so you can affect, like especially lower back pain. Like you can affect it by increasing the intensity in the glutes. The glutes are firing better. Your lower back gets to relax. But in addition, the stimulation makes it relax even more. So you can accelerate this.

Turo Virta: 40:43

I want to give you. I know it's going to be a hard question, but little comparison, like if you had to choose only one for a healthy 45-year-old, would it be EMS or traditional resistance training? Which would you choose?

Unknown: 41:02

You're on a deserted island, and you can only choose one. Yeah. Can only take one day. I am gonna go with EMS.

Turo Virta: 41:12

Okay. And why is that?

Unknown: 41:14

Why? Because you would only need EMS if you if you I mean with the example of the deserted island you would need a full gym, right? Like you would need you also need with with traditional training, you also need gravity, and by that I mean that if you want to do any back exercises, you need to be able to hang, you need to be able to lean forward, you need to have more equipment, and so in in for a healthy so something that EMS has made much more accessible is training at home, and here in LA, there are a lot of trainers that go to people's houses. They offer concierge service because the person in their house doesn't need a full gym and just a suit and maybe a couple of dumbbells. But you can train the full body if you don't have a bar that you can hang up. If you don't have a heavy enough dumbbell, if you like, this is where the limitation of traditional training I think comes into play is that you need a bunch of weights, right? You can't just have 20 pounds or 20 kilos. You need three kilos. You need 40 kilos. You also need five kilos, right? So for the smaller muscles, so you need a lot more equipment around traditional training, so I would choose EMS. Obviously, I'm biased. Yeah, yeah, no, no, I, I, I believe. Thank you. Then,

Turo Virta: 42:36

who would you actually then that tell that you don't need EMS, just call lift weights?

Unknown: 42:45

Well, the all all the people that I that I mentioned in the absolute contraindications. If you're pregnant, if you have a pacemaker, if you like all these people, I would say like you have to do traditional training because you just cannot. There are also relative contradictations. So diabetes is considered as one. There are other. If you have cancer, like cancer, actually was an absolute contraindication. Then they took it out because they saw that it actually can help cancer patients. But I would say that EMS is is great instead of seeing it as like Who who would need to go to traditional training? I mean, traditional training you could train everybody. EMS you can train everybody except this small category of absolute contradications.

Turo Virta: 43:42

Awesome. So time is flying. I have a practical scenario in the end. I want to finish with this. So, let's say 48-year-old woman who works full time, has two children, doesn't enjoy teams, has never consistently strength train, and only has about an hour each week, she generally believes she can dedicate to exercise. Would EMS be a good option for her?

Unknown: 44:16

EMS would be an ideal option for her, and this is what we see in in across many studios across many countries. Is that most clients in in the 6070 percentile are women mothers in in this age group.

Turo Virta: 44:36

What what would you want her to do in addition to that?

Unknown: 44:41

In addition to to EMS.

Turo Virta: 44:43

EMS yeah.

Unknown: 44:46

Go for walks, stretch. Go for a run if if she's able to run. Do some some type of actual low intensity carding.

Turo Virta: 45:01

Would you eventually want her doing some conventional resistance exercise as well?

Unknown: 45:08

She could. My my approach to it would be to add conventional resistance training to EMS, and so to combine weights with EMS. But what I recommend to certain people, especially if they're traveling or so, is like whatever you've learned, the movements you've learned with EMS. Try to add some weights and do them, you know, when you're traveling or when you're, you know, when you have access to weights.

Turo Virta: 45:34

And what would success after six months look like for her?

Unknown: 45:41

Most likely, less pain and aches in the joints. This is the nature of the electricity running through the body, as I've explained with with physical therapy. Some body composition changes. Hopefully, build a little muscle, feel stronger, lose a little bit of fat. But that is again, fat is dependent on energy balance. And and just feeling better, sleeping better, and so basically all the results that we've seen, that we know that resistance training can provide, like EMS can also provide.

Turo Virta: 46:16

And then, what is the biggest myth about EMS that you wish your own industry would stop repeating?

Unknown: 46:26

I wish they would stop repeating the 90% number, 9095, 98 doesn't matter any any specific number of muscle fibers. I wish that would stop. I wish they they would stop also saying that EMS is equal to a certain amount of hours at the gym. It kind of depends. It depends what you're looking at, and here in the U.S. there's also some confusion whether it's FDA approved or FDA cleared. All EMS devices are, or well, some are FDA cleared, some are not, but there's no FDA approved EMS. This means they they've done clinical trials independently, and that is not required for EMS. So I I wish these myths sort of like lost their their their their way because they're they're overblown marketing terms that don't, in my opinion, are not helping,

Turo Virta: 47:28

and is there is there is this like the biggest thing, or is there something else? What does the EMS industry at the moment claim that you think that the research doesn't just just justify currently?

Unknown: 47:45

Yeah, there's there's another claim of of comparing EMS to a number of squats or crunches or and usually it's a huge number. It's like one EMS session, 20,000 crunches or 20,000 squats, or and what it is, it's it's it's it's it's not understanding the physiology of of of muscle contraction, they're just EMS is usually done at for strength. It's usually done at 85 hertz. 85 hertz means 85 stimulations per second, and so they're taking 85 per second times 20 minutes equals these huge numbers. That's not how muscle contracts. Muscle once it reaches 2025 hertz, it just stays contracted. It doesn't keep contracting within a second. It just it's a very it's a strong one long contraction for one second. It's not contracting 85 times per second, and this is a myth that even in EMS trainers, a lot of them don't really grasp, and they're just doing some weird math and and and claiming these big numbers. It's not true.

Turo Virta: 48:57

Okay, thank you. So, what is if now someone who is listening this episode? Thank you, by the way, if you are still listening, if you remember one thing about EMS from this conversation, what should it be?

Unknown: 49:14

I would say that if you are struggling to make exercise consistent in your life, the EMS look into EMS because it could solve a lot of issues. It solves the issue of time. It solves the issue of fears of lifting heavy, of injuring yourself, it solves the issue of range of motion. If you are limited by your range of motion, injured, then EMS can really help you with getting stronger, even though you can't move fully, and it will get you stronger quicker.

Turo Virta: 49:50

Thank you, Conrad. Where can people learn more about you and your book?

Unknown: 49:55

So I have a book called EMS Difference. It is available on Amazon everywhere in Italy, Spain, in the U.S. So the EMS Difference, and otherwise I have a website. It's conrademsfitness.com.

Turo Virta: 50:11

Awesome! Thank you so much. I will put all the links to the show notes. So thank you, Conrad, again so much. Thank you for listening. And if this episode helped you, please share it with one of your friends. Subscribe to the channel and leave a five-star review, as those are helping so much. So thank you so much for listening, and talk to you in the next episode.