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Welcome back to the Fit Metro Fitness podcast. Sometimes the hardest part of getting healthier isn't knowing what to eat or how to exercise. It's trying to take care of yourself when life has completely changed, grief, divorce, relationship changes, becoming a single parent, or simply realizing that you no longer recognize yourself can affect everything, from the way you eat and sleep, and how you talk to yourself, and the choices you make every day. My guest today is Sasa Hutches, author of Love, Grief, and More Sex Than Vinant. Sassa's story includes loss, divorce, single parenting, rebuilding her identity, and learning to trust herself again after life didn't go according to plan. Today we are talking about self-worth, people pleasing, coping, self-sabotage, and what rebuilding yourself actually looks like when life falls apart. Sasa, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Turo. Thank you very much for having me on. It's such an honor to be here. So thank you. We've made it. It's my pleasure. It's my. I'm so happy you found time with behind the scenes. It's not Sasa as also as you can imagine busy life, and it's not it's not easy to get her, but I really, really appreciate and looking forward for this conversation. Thank you. Me too. Very much. For someone meeting you for the first time, what happened in your life that eventually led you to write this book? Oh, do you know what? There's. I mean, I'm I'm 46, so I feel like I've led quite a colorful life during those years. There's been a few incidences actually that has led me to where I am today. I'd say sort of key defining moments. The first, I've done so much work on myself in the last 10 years, and I do feel the very first thing actually was just as a child having this inherent belief that I wasn't good enough. I don't know where it came from. It wasn't that anyone ever said that to me. It was just this horrible voice in my

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"You're not good enough. And so that I feel shaped a lot of my sort of childhood. You know, I was very nervous child, wet the bed, bit my nails until I was sort of a teenager. I I don't know, but no one externally really saw that that side. My family did, but I was a very inherently shy child. And then I lost my mother to breast cancer when she when I was 24. And at that time, I had already had a bit of taste of alcohol. I realized alcohol was a great way to numb pain, and my mum meant the absolute world to me. So she'd been ill on and off for five years, and when she died, I wish, I wished, wished I could have died that day too. And sadly, for years afterwards, I felt the same. But with the tools I had at that time, I didn't know anything about meditation, about tuning into your heart space. The only thing I knew was drinking, and so I was working in recruitment, and I just got lost in the whole sort of alcohol world, the party world. Put the clown face on, so that was a real key moment. And then a few years later, I was married and got divorced. That very sadly got divorced. I feel like perhaps my husband and I were just plasters for each other. I hadn't done enough any work on myself at that stage, and I've been desperately looking for the love of my life since my mum had died. And and again, with this lack of self belief and self worth, I honestly thought that I just put every man on a pedestal. I just thought that they would be the guy that would come and save me and fix me. You know, like all the Disney films tell you. So it was never that I was taking responsibility for my own life. Anyway, the divorce is really what led. That was the breakdown that led to the breakthrough because I had two children at the time, two tiny children. My mum was an amazing mum, and I knew I was going to be the very best mum I could be. So yeah, so that kickstarted my journey of self-discovery, really at a really deep level. Reading as many spiritual and self-help books as I could, embracing sober sensations. I didn't drink at all for about five years, and yeah, like like superglue, these main messages sort of began to stick about the following your intuition and the power of meditation, the power of forgiveness of yourself and of others, of letting go. It was yeah, it was an incredible time. And and and the last three years, I've actually been writing a book called the Soho Summers series, which is very much about a lead character who stumbles into the most messiest situations and slowly but surely starts to wake up. So yes, that's what's led me to today. Was there, or one of those moments what you mentioned, losing your mum or getting divorced? But was it was there which you would say that is the particular moment when you realized that I don't really know who I am anymore. Um. Yeah, I mean, I think when my mum died, I really didn't know who I was. That was the whole problem. I'd sort of grown up. I was the youngest of four. I was a shy child, and I always put other people ahead of myself. I was an absolute people pleaser. I just follow the crowd. So even to the point of going to university, I I didn't even know what course I wanted to do. Didn't even really want to go to uni. Just went because felt like it was a good idea, and it was probably gentle, you know, gentle encouragement from family, friends, teachers. I don't think I ever knew myself. I've the only time I've started to really get to know myself is since the divorce, and in the last three years since writing this book, Love, Grief, and More Sex Than Pino, which is part of the Soho Summer series, and following this heroine who goes through sort of really some similar sticky situations that I once lived, I I'm really understanding myself. The writing has become the healing, an even deeper level of healing. It's been incredible, and I'm so grateful that I feel like the universe has guided me to put pen to paper because I've changed as a person. I was already on this road of of self discovery, but the last three years I've I've managed I've fallen in love with myself. I never I never loved myself before, but I realize all I've ever wanted was love, and I've always looked externally for it. And now I'm looking internally, and I'm giving all of that energy back into myself, and it's amazing. It's so empowering, and yeah, I feel like I'm knowing myself. I know myself. I'm learning, and what other parts of I don't know about myself, I'm so keen to find out. You know, like it's. I'm curious. That is that you can hear it, and you can see it how your eyes are sparkling, and it's so wonderful to hear. Thank you. Why, why, why do you think when life falls apart? Why can taking care of ourselves be the one of the first things to disappear? Ah, I think the first things to disappear. I suppose because we're taught that, aren't we, that you have to be selfless and you have to always give and provide for others, and that you're, yeah, I think, and also in in terms of if you're going through a really tough time, it's so easy. I mean, I've led led this life for years. It's so easy to reach for a bottle. It wasn't even just drinks with me. It was other things as well that would make me got to carry on partying all night. It was their easy distractions, right? And in today's society, we've got the scrolling, haven't we? There's so much stuff out there to distract us from any pain or discomfort that we're feeling, it's a much easier, quick fix, and I think, yeah, we don't, we're not putting ourselves first by doing that. Like what we should be doing is leaning into ourselves and our feelings, you know, honoring our feelings. Where, where is my body? Am I feeling this? Oh, it's in my heart. Ow, okay. So what's this trying to tell me? And I've, I do feel like now I'm you know on airplanes when they say with a gas mask you have to put your own on instead of your children and in previous years I've always thought but that's awful you'd want to put your kids on first but now I I totally get that as sort of a metaphor for life you can only give what's inside you and I did read somewhere like we're like an orange right and if if if if if we haven't got basically if you've got hate and or self hate or and anything horrible inside you and someone squeezes you life triggers you then that's what's going to come out so it's so important to get your inner world right and if you can get that self love self worth self respect right I do feel the most important relationship any of us can ever have is the one with ourselves, and yeah, and we need to put ourselves first. It's the most selfless thing we can do because if we're doing that, the ripple effect of that is huge, and we're then giving out. We're giving out naturally going to be giving out the kindness, the love because that's what we're filling ourselves up with. It's it's it's the best thing we can do. Yeah, otherwise. Yeah, and I I feel like that, especially women, like men usually are better taking care of themselves, and but especially women are really struggling with this part because they are like I think I don't know if it's coming from being mum or or but it's I in my work, in my coaching, I see all the time that women they are really struggling to take care of themselves. I agree with that, and I think a lot. As I'm lucky enough to be a mother, and obviously the nurturing, well, I suppose the nurturing was always there even as a child. But I, having been single now for a long time, and having poured all of that energy I used to into other people, or looking for the right relationship, pouring it all into myself and all into my book, the Soho books, the Soho Summer series. I'm seeing what I'm capable of, and I feel very grateful now to be single. Not as a detriment to any man at all, but I know for a fact if. I was in a in a relationship or a marriage. I would be the one, probably naturally feeling like I should be doing the cooking, the cleaning, all the admin stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I wouldn't have the time to be doing all of this stuff that I'm doing, or even this work I'm doing on myself. You know, meditating for 1520 minutes a day, like things like that, would just get knocked off the priority list. I'm sure. So I'm I'm now seeing this. My whole mindset has changed around being single. For years, it was always that there's something wrong with you. You know, you can't ever possibly be really happy or feel complete or validated unless you're in the relationship. Now, personally, from my experience, I'm I'm grateful for it because I would never be the person I am today if I hadn't have, you know, if if I hadn't have had this time, the luxury of time to really invest in myself and put myself first with my children, and I say not with my children, it's yeah, I've even with the kids, I have conversations with them. I'm like, I love you, but who's the most important person to love you? And they know it's for them to say me. I'm the most important person to love me. I think it's so important. Oh yeah, oh yeah, and this is this is like you said that those experiences from the past, like even at the moment, they might feel the worst experience. That's why it's happening to me. But then, if you like in your case, you are looking back and you are genuinely grateful that those things maybe because I I like to I try to be a very positive person and I at even it's hard at some point of life and and I always like to think that it's it's maybe there is a reason at this moment I probably don't know it yet but maybe years from now, you will you will understand why it had to be exactly this way, why it had to be this hard, and I yeah I I didn't mean to interrupt. I I 100% agree with that, and even though you can go through the darkest points, I went through one recently, and I can't. I won't go into details, but I honestly thought life was suddenly getting really good, and I was so excited, so grateful. And then, bam, something happened totally out the blue, and it absolutely knocked me for six. And I'm so grateful that I've been already learning and leaning on these spiritual practices of just trust, trust the timing, trust that good, better, and best is always working its way to you, even though your brain, your your mind, and head and mind might be thinking, "But this isn't how it was meant to be. You know, you have to surrender. You have to surrender to things and actually just go with the flow of life because it's this. I believe in the universe. I believe there is this greater power, and when you do surrender, it will guide you far quicker to your highest path. But as humans, we don't understand it necessarily. I think I'm hoping that there's this mass consciousness and waking up going on across the planet. But you know, we are generally what's it called, controlled and driven by our egos, which is often fear or control, or always looking for safety. Whereas actually, I feel there is a much bigger, you know, energy at work here, and we're all part of this huge divine plan. And if we can just surrender a lot more and go with the flow and follow inspired action, then we're all going to end up with following our inner genius and a little spark that we were actually born here to do and to offer the world. That's my take on it, anyway. But it's hard. It is hard sometimes. It's tough. It is. So I want to go back a little bit. Those your darkest moments, what you talked like, and how what did self sabotas look like for you during that those periods, is it okay to speak really openly and honestly? Yeah, absolutely. Like there's no okay. So the key things were drinking far too much. Like my, I worked in recruitment in London and sort of during and then for about 10 years after my mum died, it was a very male-dominated industry. Lots of client lunches, lots of entertaining. You drink to celebrate a deal. You drink to commiserate. You'd lost a deal. I would drink because I was running away from myself, from my pain, from my life. So there was always, always a reason to hit the pub most lunch times, and then you go back to the pub after work. But the thing is, I then got into cocaine, so it was never that I would just be in the pub till closing. There was always going to be an after party somewhere, and I'd sniff that out. And then the excuse the pun, then there'd be the after after party. And so I was a mess. I was. I didn't do this every night, and I managed to maintain my job in recruitment in the same company. Goodness knows how, really, but I did, and very grateful to you know to to all of them there. And they, you know, they're all a really a really good bunch. It was just I I was just wild, and I suppose I hid it well, and. I would also, in my desperate bid to find a husband, that actually was my main mission in life. I was, I felt there was something wrong with me because I wasn't at all career driven. I now understand that I'm not in that. I'm not molded like that. Whereas at the time, I was thinking, "Gosh, I don't know why I don't get any meaning out of talking about strategy or corporate things or KPIs and things, the only thing that really was giving me meaning was having talking to people about real feelings. Most people didn't want to talk about real feelings because they push things under the carpet, and I had all this grief and all this pain and all this love for my mum inside me with nowhere to sort of let it out, and so I just was always looking for the guy. So often it would end up with lots and lots of different, you know, one night stands where I would really hope that the next day they would declare their undying love for me and want to marry me, and you know, regardless of how suitable or unsuitable they were, I would have said yes. So it was absolute, yeah, just years of total self sabotage, completely and utterly abandoning myself. That that's probably and that went on for almost 10 years. I mean, London's a really big place as well. There's a hell of naughtiness you can get up to in London, and yeah, I gave it a good go. Did you recognize those behaviors as self sabotage at the time, or Only later. To be honest, because I was-I mean, lots of my friends and my colleagues and things, everyone had a big appetite for partying. Not, not to the only way near to the extent that I did. But I used to just sort of kid myself that it was normal. It's perfectly fine. But I think what most people would do. They might have lots of drinks when they're out, but they wouldn't go home and then open another bottle of wine when they get in. You know, I was, and I'd have drinks before I went out. It was like the booze was just constantly there. I don't think. Yeah, I. I think if only I had been looking at the hurt behind my behavior. If only. If only I had known that I was the only one that was going to ever save me and fix me. I never knew that, and so I was constantly, yeah, just running away from myself. I didn't realize it was self sabotage. I thought I'd like I say I thought there was something wrong with me. There was a lot of compare and despair because lots of my contemporaries met their partners late in their 20s, and I hadn't. And so again, that's that self-fulfilling prophecy of I'm not good enough, I'm not lovable, I'm not worthy. Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know myself. I didn't rate myself. I was lost. How did was there like how did that grief affect the way you treated yourself at the time? Was it because of grief, or was it kind of everything together what led you to treat you this way? Grief had a huge part to play in that, but it was also having now got this deeper understanding of myself, and forever on this journey, committed this journey. Now, I do feel like I wasn't ever really built for the world where you have your 2.4 children. You know, you've your definitions of success is you go to a university, you get your two one or higher, you get the corporate job, you go on holidays a couple of times a year, you have the cars, you have the suit, you know, the successful marriage. They were all things that, to me, was sold to me throughout my life as if you don't hit these milestones, then you're unsuccessful. My life has been so different to that, but I'm very grateful for it now. I've I've got to this. I've got enough out the other side of it now to have the gratitude and think I had to go through all of that in order to sow the seeds for awareness that I've got today. So the grief was a huge part of it, but equally was was a part of really understanding myself and getting that relationship with myself as as good and as positive and as peaceful as it could be. So she talked also a lot about shame. What role did shame play in your story? Sorry, but shame that you talk so soon. Yeah. Do you know what I've this? I don't. It's weird. I mean, I should. In one sense, you suppose I should have shame about the awful behavior I was conducting, but I've never felt shame about that. I just feel sad about that. The only bit of shame that I have is that I didn't love myself sooner. That's the real shame. It really is because I think the the other behaviors, the self sabotaging behaviors, they came through pain, and I wish I had been able to address that, or there was enough of the right tools or people around at that time to help me get through that. So yeah. That's, I think the real shame is just the lack of self love. Yeah, that's that's very true. What did then people pleasing look like in your life at those times? Oh my gosh, I I honestly for almost most of my life, it's only really in the last three years since writing the Soho Summer series, and and like I say, learning to love myself, have I stopped people pleasing? And it's so liberating. I want I love it. But for most of my life, I always thought other people were better than me. I always thought their voice mattered more than me. They they their point of view was more important and was was right and I was wrong, to the point where I didn't really ever have a voice. If I if I didn't agree with someone, I would never speak up because I always wanted to keep the peace. I would always I wouldn't always go with the. I've always feel like I have been a bit on the outside looking in. Like I would never follow the majority crowd. I've always been quite an independent person, but if ever I was in conversations with people, it was always it would always be that I'm lesser than you're better than me. So yeah, I'll be really nice to you. I'll pop you up on that pedestal, and so long as you walk away feeling that you're really great, then I've done my job. But what I now understand about the people pleasing, interestingly, because I do, I've you know read lots about manipulation and control and things like this, and it came to my attention that actually people pleasing is a form of manipulation because you're actually trying to get the other person to like you, which I now see. I didn't understand that about myself, but I now see I had this desperate desire to be liked because I didn't think I was likable. So yes, or why would people please so that people would like me? But that's not being honest and true, is it? How much authenticity now? Just be yourself. Say what you think. Yeah, and why you think that it's it's happening, especially for women, that they are very good at meeting everybody else needs while barely knowing what they need themselves. I think so, and it's a real shame. And I I do think I don't think it is a midlife crisis. I think it's a midlife rebirth. I think women wake up, you know, perhaps when they've had their children. Their children are slightly older, and they start to realize that they they are important. They're they're the most important person in their life. Like you know, a man is the most important person in his life. And as soon as we start acknowledging that and treating ourselves with respect, with kindness, you know, that's what we're then going to be giving out to other people. So yeah, I I feel maybe that's why lots of marriages start breaking down, and because you know women and and men, not just women, but they realize actually this isn't all it was cracked up to be, and I've grown, and I'm a different person to I who the person I was when we married, and I have different needs now, and understand myself a bit better. I think it's all, I think that's all good. I think people are meant to change. You're meant to evolve. That's the whole point of being here. Yeah, and how do you then, in your opinion, to start rebuilding self-trust after repeatedly ignoring your own needs? What are your tips? I honestly will never abandon myself again. Now I don't people please anymore. I don't. I barely drink. I don't do any of the other stuff. I, in terms of relationships and things like that, I would only ever entertain being with someone when I truly feel that they can actually bring something to my table, and it would be a lot of courting before anything else was To happen, I feel like I meditate every day, and that really anchors me in. It it it connects me to my heart, and I will never let myself down again, not knowingly. Were there some small promises you started making to yourself that helped you when you started that your journey. Sorry, promises. So promises you made to yourself, like us. We all, you know, when you were in dark spot, like how did you get started? Were there some small promises you started to make in yourself that were helpful at the time. It was. I don't know that I did promises. It was more through the reading. Like I read Eckhart. I think the first book I read of sort of spiritual spirituality was Eckhart Tolle's Power of Now, and it wasn't really me making promises with myself. It was me raising my awareness, and once you know something, you can't go back. That's how I'm finding it anyway, and so the thought of me, like with that book, it was how we're not our thoughts, right? You're you're the consciousness, the observer of your thoughts, and you can change your thoughts within a moment, and that sort of was really empowering for me. So it wasn't. I don't feel. I ever said right, I'm going to do this, and then because I I feel I mean I'd done that in previous years when I wasn't hadn't wasn't on this journey of self discovery and I'd always fail right I'm going to lose a stone within the next month or I'm going to I don't know hit this work target I I always felt like um oh what's it called oh not your commitment. Your something-it's-it's on a loop. Basically, your commitment to something throughout the day it can start to fade. If you say,"I'm not going to have a drink at the end of work today, but you've had a really stressful day at work, by the time you get home, you might be tired. You know, your goalpost can start changing, and you-and you just that elastic band can can snap, can't it? But when I once I've started on this journey of of all the reading and listening to podcasts about raising your awareness and doing all the meditation, and it's like I don't make those promises with myself. I just learn about myself, and then I don't want to abandon myself. That's happening. And by the way, it's a great book I have. I've read also Power of Now. It's it's amazing book, so can only recommend it. So what what happens when you go? I I as a fitness coach and I have worked and work still with so many people who tell always that everything is gonna change on this next Monday or next month, and we we start to make these huge promises, and then we fail to keep them. So, what is really happening there? I I think I think it's an inside job. I think you you have to really want to change. You have to really want to be the change, or you just as in if your heart's not in it. If there's just no way that you're going to stick to these things, and a the goals have to be realistic. You know, you can't say I want to be president next year. You know what I mean? You've got. There's got to be a realistic target so that you start achieving things, and you you can then start feeling proud of yourself, and you start seeing the results, and you know that's all exciting, and that spurs you on and motivates you. But I think people can just talk a good talk. You can talk a great talk about going to the gym. Maybe go to the gym. I might go to the gym. Oh oh, sugar. The traffic was really bad. Oh, I'll go tomorrow. It's it's so tiring when you're like that. I think I feel like if you're gonna if you make the decision, just commit to it. And sometimes there's so much hot air. And again, it all comes down, I think, to people wanting to be seen to look good or to be the part. And it sounds good, doesn't it? I'm going to commit to doing this, and they get the little reward and validation from people. But then when they actually have to see it through, it's it's very easy because life can get in the way, and that voice in your head can get in the way. Oh, you don't have to really do it tonight. One day won't make any difference. I I do find if you do something for at least three days on the trot, then it's quite easy to start then bringing that into a habit. But it's it's always a very beginning bit, isn't it? It's actually turning up on the yoga mat or turning up at the gym-it's the very first thing that's the hardest. But once you're actually there, I would say most people probably enjoy it, and you know you do get the positive endorphins and you do feel good. Yeah, that's my experience. Yeah, no, it's I I feel a little bit from my my experience like what I what I see also like people people usually they make those promises. What you make to yourself, they are way too big. You know, you have some certain amount of expectations that you know. For example, you ideally you know probably most people know that they should do some kind of resistance training. If it's at the gym, then say that I'm gonna go to three times a week to gym, and then you say life happens. You for some reason you can't get there, or you are not going there, and then you know what is the point going there two times? But this is not, in my opinion, like how you start. If you want to build habit, it have to be realistic, and ideally, especially in the beginning, like it, it's like when I started coaching, it was I would be also like it's gonna be three times, and we don't maybe two times, but we are not gonna negotiate anything else. And now I'm like that. No, it's it's for every person different, and it's there is not such amount that what is too little. Like for somebody, it can be honestly. I had a guest in my podcast who said that how they started without with many years of trying to get themselves into a gym, and how they started was just building that habit. And for the first couple of weeks, they were not even allowed to go into the gym. The only habit was that after work, I take a car. I drive to the gym. I knock the door and I go. But they were not even allowed to go inside. And then at some point, that okay, now we have practiced that habit for a couple weeks. Then next step is you go in. You spend five to 10 minutes inside. Do whatever you want. If you don't want, just walk around, look what people are doing, and then leave. So it's step by step, and then maybe at some point you can start to think that doing maybe some exercise, maybe having a program, what you that you know what to do, that you are not just looking there around, but it all starts. It's it's a process, and it's it have to be. You have to be like if you can, because I I think if you are building habits for related to health and fitness and or any habits, it it have to be so small that you can do it in your worst weeks. Yeah, I agree. Because it's it's because we start usually we start the planning from the ideal week, what ideally would happen, but life often doesn't work that way. It's so true, and also I think there's a lot of fear, isn't there, when people are trying to build their habits, and they there's a lot of compare. You know, I've particularly if I've gone through a period where I haven't been throwing myself into fitness, and then you go back into the gym. You, I always feel a bit self-conscious, you know. Even getting into the gym, even finding the right outfit, you know, and then all of that stuff is it feel can feel really overwhelming, and you can talk yourself out of it. But as soon as you do it once, I feel like you you've you know you face that fear, you've got through it, and then you feel a little bit more part of it, and then the more you go, the more the more it just becomes normal, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and you realize everyone's their self conscious. Everyone's got their own stuff going on, their own narrative in their head. You know, don't worry about it. Yeah, no, it's it's it is at the team. You you know most people they are scared. They think that what other people are gonna think that I'm completely beginner or I haven't been there for a while. But trust me, nobody is looking at you. Nobody. They are way too busy to worry about their own insecurities, and so true. It's nobody cares how you look, what you wear. Even it might be a big thing for you, but nobody else. They are way too busy either with their phone or with their own security. So that that really, I think, isn't huge issue. So your did your relationship with food, alcohol, exercise, sleep, and for other habits change when your emotional state changed. Absolutely, 100% So before I had was on this lovely journey I'm on now, and I was in the self sabotage years. I would drink far too much, which meant you've got all those calories right that you've got to burn off, but your appetite to go into the pub, into the the gym the next day or go for a run wasn't really necessarily there because you were tired because you'd been partying all night. So, and you would crave the the carb load heavy foods, wouldn't to to help you through the hangover. So, yeah, I was back then. I I wasn't. I don't know. I I didn't. I was fine. Like you know, I've I looked fine. I was, but internally, I knew I could be so much fitter, and that used to then add to the whole. I'm not good enough. I'm I'm rubbish. All of this stuff. So, but I was the one in control of my life. I was the one at that time deciding not to do anything about it. So you know, it's all on me. And then also, when my mum died, I did. I am quite an emotional eater, so I did eat quite a lot then. But because I was partying a lot, I suppose I didn't really put a huge amount of weight on. But funnily enough, when I was writing my book, because a large part of the book of love, grief, and more sex than pino, the girl does lose her mum, and because I was I was writing through some of my own experiences through the lens of this lead character, Soho Summers. Gosh, I ended up putting weight on because I was writing this mum section probably about six months, and for me personally, the first book I wrote, the first draft I wrote, was my own book, my own healing, and I did. I put weight on, and I was like, "Oh my gosh! Like this is just weird because I'm not used to kind of looking like this or being like this. But I know it was emotional. It was, and it was all part of my healing. I had, I kind of almost had to do that, so I allowed it, and yeah, this I do feel the sleep. I I find, like I said recently, something not great had happened to me, and my sleep was affected so much to the point I'm normally the person there. If I'm if I can't sleep, then I'm in the middle of the night trying to work out why, and I'm trying to you know, or don't worry about it. You'll get you'll have a better day the next day. And but because I hadn't then slept, hadn't been sleeping properly for about a week, I then did start to take some sleeping tablets. But the problem with those is I would wake up feeling really groggy every morning and almost a bit depressed, really. So I knew long term they weren't, they really weren't good. They got me through that sticky spot. But yes, sleep is just so important, and I love it. I. I love it when I'm in a good place, which I I often am now. Thank the Lord, and I'm so grateful for that. But I love it when you have a good night's sleep. You know that you know there's no worries in your head, and you've done the exercise, and your eating's on point, and yeah, everything just is in flow, and everything's complementing each other. But you do. I feel I'm very. It's very easy for things sometimes to slip for me, and I'm kind of an all or nothing person. So sometimes it's all going brilliantly, and then I can have an off day, and then I'm like, oh, the chocolate biscuits dive, you know, go for that. I really notice it. I'm aware of it, but I almost not enough to stop. Yeah. So, but then I figure we're all human, and yeah, that is that is part of it's it's. I think it's the most important thing is like you said, it's being aware of it. Yeah, and then you know when it happens, so asking better questions from yourself that you are really needed. Like just it's I think if you are able to even stop, and recognizing that what is what is actually how the chain is going to go, what is going to happen next, and then if you at some point, of course, it's not going to work every time. But if you are asking yourselves that, okay, I had one, do I need to? Okay, I know maybe I shouldn't have, but if you, anyways, you had. So if your next question is that now it doesn't matter anymore, and then at that moment, if you are able to stop yourself and ask that, do I really need it? Does it help now to have five or 10 more? I know. Then if you still you said, okay, I set an alarm, let's say for 10 minutes, and then I make another decision. So it's just delaying that final decision you make. That 10 minutes, you take put timer visible somewhere that you see it, and then 10 minutes have passed. If you still tell yourself that I'm gonna have those another 10, go for it. Of course, and but trust me, if you do, for example, this small thing, you won't every time you won't get those another 10. Sometimes it will be that you will be have no. Now I don't need it anymore. And then obviously it worked. And even if it doesn't work every time, if it if it works, let's say two times out of 10, it's still a win. That's a really good trick. I love that because that's all like that's like you responding, isn't it, rather than reacting in that moment. That you know animalistic. Oh, I'm hungry. I'm going to have it. The sugar fix is so good. Yeah, it allows your I suppose your higher self, your intuition to kick in, and the whole nah, come on, you've been working so hard. Do you really need it? The the voice that's actually there for your greatest good to kick in. Yeah, no, because it's this is like what I I don't like that you are because if you tell yourself I can't, like we often all or nothing people are telling, and once you do it anyways, then it's already that okay. I that was my rule, and now I fucked it up. So, what's the point anymore? Now it doesn't matter. It's I start again on Monday or tomorrow or whatever. But if you are able to break that pattern, you are aware of it. Yeah. And then you know finding some different strategies and trying them. If you know if it's working, maybe it could be okay. I'm, but never. I would never tell yourself that that this is something I can't. You can, but you have to have some kind of rule in a place what to do before. Yeah, that's a great thing. So no more being all or nothing. I'm gonna. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So how much of rebuilding your life involved accepting parts of yourself you previously touched? I think probably all of it, to be honest, because the big, as I keep saying, the biggest thing was that I'm unlovable. I'm not worthy. I'm useless, and so I now honestly think the the biggest lesson I've ever learned, and I'm learning, is is that whole relationship with me, and so yeah, I've I feel like I've had to. I've just that's been the biggest thing, the biggest pivotal point for me is is is is is becoming my biggest champion, and it's it's been really hard to get here. But I I now look back and just with with not regret because I don't want to have regret or shame around it, but just with like I said, just with sadness and just think, gosh, what a lot of my life I've wasted, not realizing my own self worth. So, yeah, I hope that's answered the question. Yeah, absolutely. So, is there then a difference, in your opinion, between self acceptance and giving up on chance? Self acceptance and giving up on. Chance. Do you? Sorry. What do you mean about giving up on chance? So let's say you have a chance to do something, and you you are giving up on it. Do you mean is it a good chance? Is it is it something that's good? No, giving up on change. Oh, change! Sorry, I'm so sorry. Sorry, my pronounces. No, no, no. That's okay. Not at all. It's my problem. My my ears and my laptop. Giving up on change. So with self acceptance. No, I like you have to change. Yeah, that's one thing. One thing I'm learning is that accepting that you change and that life changes and that people around you change and that that's okay, you're meant to change. Like it couldn't ever, nothing can ever stay static. Again, it's all you know, going back to the rivers and the streams and stuff. They don't. If they're static, they're going to become stagnant. The water's going to get all horrible and toxic, and you won't be able to see through it. We have to have the change. You have to have the flow. Even though sometimes, yeah, I don't. I think with the self acceptance, the change, I think that's part of it. I think they really go hand in hand. Like I feel like every day I have to put these practices into place. Every day I kind of wake up a bit of a different person. Yeah, you have different triggers and different things going on in your life. And some days I feel like I'm absolutely nailing it, and other days I'm absolutely awful. And but yeah, self self acceptance is huge, and the ability to go with change. Yeah, no, absolutely. So that how do you know when you are making a decision because you genuinely want it versus because you want validation from somebody else. Yeah, that's. I feel. I mean, that's a great question and it is a tough one. And I feel the brain's tricky, right? Our egos are naughty. They're they're yeah they're they're manipulative and they're sneaky and they sneak in and a bit like you saying set the timer for 10 minutes sometimes if it's a decision for the silly example but this is one. So I went on a social media detox for about 10 years when I was going through my divorce, and life was always was a bit was rocky. And I was I was you know, and I also realized that the world, what's it called? The eyes are the windows to the soul. So you have to make sure they're clean and bright. So I didn't want to. I didn't watch the news. I didn't go on social media. But now that I'm back and I've written this book, Love, Grief, More, Sex, and Pino. I'm out there. I have to be on social media promoting that. Sometimes there's posts that I put up, and I think, am I doing this because this is for the goodness of the book, and it's for the goodness of that, or am I doing this because this is an ego-driven thing, and I'm bragging a bit, or not that I want to be because I really work hard on not being like that, but is it because actually I get that little dopamine fix? Because oh look at me, I've done this, and I struggle with that with social media because I feel I'm only kind of recently getting back on it, but I've I I can really notice that I check who's watched, who's seen it, and I shouldn't, and I'm wondering why am I doing this? I'm wasting time doing this. Like it really doesn't matter. You put the post up, you let it go, you let it go. You off to the universe. You carry on with your life. But I mean, I feel like that must be my ego, really, because I want to check. Even though I've worked so hard on, and I'm very independent, and I, I'm, you know, I don't look for the external validation. Other people that surely must be part of it, isn't it? It's a little trap that perhaps we talk about the 3d matrix. I think that's a little trap that they put people in because a you're wasting your time by checking who's checked. You're not working on your purpose, living you know, following your dreams and tuning into your heart. You're too busy checking this silly bloody device to see who's who's like things. And so, yeah, I, I, I don't know. I think with luckily in the space of my life, with main things, when I'm making a decision, I would often meditate on it, and I might not get the answer straight away. But generally, within a 2448, hour period, I really would, and I trust that that's from my heart. And sometimes you get things that are just so. I get lots of signs and things, and you're like, that has to be for me. Like, follow the nudges, you know. It's like your light will go off, and you're like, oh my gosh, that can only be for me. Like, I was using names for my book, and then I went to a, it was a bird, a cooker bar in my book, and then that day I went to a theme park with the kids, and there was a kookaburra in a cage. I'm like that's really random. So things like that. I know that I'm following my heart, but the one thing I have to, I've still yet to nail, is this whole social media thing, and it really frustrates me that I'm I'm falling into that trap, and I don't mean to be, but it's I I think maybe it's because I'm starting out and I'm trying to see. Whether my platform's growing or not, I don't know, or maybe it is ego, and it's because I'm looking for yeah, looking for the validations. Don't know. I have been there. I honestly now I have been so much better, like mentally, especially like my mental health. I haven't been now. I have been posting a lot less, but like when I started posting social media, it was I was exactly same than you. And then you know, of course, it creates some amazing moments when you see that wow, one your one of your posts went viral, has over 3 million views, and you have within a week, I had like I don't know over 100,000, almost 100,000 new followers, and you are like, whoa, oh, this is amazing! And of course, then you are watching how everything is doing and how everything is going. But then, of course, it changed. I can't be dishonest. Honestly, it changed my life, but I'm extremely grateful for it. But then, if that is like that, you are like it was. I felt like that there was nothing else that matters than social media, how posts were doing, and everything, and and now letting it go a little bit. Like, not that I don't care anymore, but having some other priorities in life and what I feel like that are even more important, it's it just it's it can take so much energy away from you. And when you are, it's because it's it's kind of game, you know. It's it's it's game. You see that who is watching you and what they are thinking about you. Is there some bad comments or good comments, or who is commenting or seeing, and it's it's it can be really really really dense for for especially for mental health and how you see yourself. I think so, and also it's things like you see someone. There might be a few people that keep that always see your posts, but you you know they've seen them, and then they won't mention anything to you about say, "Oh, you've just been in Women's Own magazine, or "I see you're on the radio next week. And you kind of start thinking, "That's really weird. Like, I know, are you supporting me, or are you not supporting me? It does all of that, doesn't it? It makes you start questioning friendships and questioning questioning the people around you. So, yeah, I will get better at all of this. I really will because I can see it eats into my energy. And also, the annoying thing is when you post, you can't. I can't help suddenly. I'm suddenly having a little scroll. Oh, look, that popped up. I'm interested in that. And then it's like, oh god, I didn't mean to be doing this. Yeah, but that is that is how social media works. They know you probably better than you know yourself. Yeah. What they are going to show you, because the only goal is that you spend more time in their apps, so you see more of their apps, and that's how they make money. Exactly. So last few questions. So I know a lot of women listening know exactly what they should do for their health, but emotionally they just can't seem follow through, like what we talked in the little bit earlier. From your experience, what needs to happen internally before those external habits start becoming easier? It would be for me seriously just from from my personal experience. It would be loving yourself more than anyone, not from an ego point of view, but from a you are a divine being here. You are a spiritual being having this human experience, and you need to love yourself first and foremost. Unconditional love for yourself, acceptance, yeah, just, and that's it's taken me a lifetime to get here, and I think lots of women do do struggle with this. But for me, meditating has really been the gateway to that, and yeah, I think that's the key because once you start loving yourself, naturally the things that aren't very good for you. I've had to walk away from loads of people where the relationships actually weren't for my highest good, and because I've changed, a lot of people they don't like it when you start changing. When you start putting yourself first, they're not used to this version of you. It's uncomfortable, and it also shines a bit of a spotlight on them, maybe, and so, but you have to be strong enough to walk away from things that aren't serving you, or for your greatest good. Not from again, not from an ego point of view, was in you're not serving me, but just genuinely aren't there supporting you and what you're truly capable of, and who you're who you who you were born to be. And I think you once once you start loving yourself, you naturally walk away from the wrong relationships. You naturally don't want to be in years of self sabotage or drinking too much or taking various things or you know partaking in unhealthy habits. You you start just yeah treating yourself like a piece of treasure. Oh, that is that is so true and. I'm happy you said it. Thank you. So, where can listeners find your book and learn more about you? Thank you. Yes. So, my book currently is on Amazon, the paperback and Kindle version. I will be getting an audio copy up very soon. So, that's called Love, Grief, and More Sex Than Pino, as in the wine, Pino Grigio, and I'm on. I've got my Facebook page, so Sasha Hughes author. It's my Facebook page, and then Instagram is Sasha Hughes, and I do have my own website as well, Sasha Hughes.com. So there'll be lots more information on there. And very soon, my book's going to be in Waterstones and W. H. Smith's, and I've got my second book due out, which is called Soho Summers versus Love, Life, the Universe. That's due out early next year, so it's all exciting. It's all yeah, and I would love it if people read the book or followed me, or you know. And I'm so grateful to you for this opportunity to talk. It is, it is amazing. Thank you, Cesa. Your book is amazing. I I can only recommend to read it, and I put all links to show notes. So thank you so much, Cesa, for coming, sharing your valuable time. Really, really appreciate. Absolute pleasure. I'm I'm so grateful to be here. It's lovely, lovely to meet you and enjoy this phase of parenthood. I will. I will. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. All right. Absolutely. Take care. Bye.