FitMitTuro Fitness Podcast

How to get out of weightloss plateau & when to use Reverse Diet with Jordan Lips

June 01, 2023 Turo Virta
FitMitTuro Fitness Podcast
How to get out of weightloss plateau & when to use Reverse Diet with Jordan Lips
Show Notes Transcript

In this FitMitTuro Fitness Podcast Episode I talked with certified nutritionist and fitness coach Jordan Lips (@jordanlipsfitness) about weightloss plateau and what options you have to get out of plateau.

We talked about reverse dieting and how it has become a very popular in fitness industry. You will learn the truth if it is actually helping and to who it might make sense to use or not to use.

For more information about Jordan and his coaching options plus all social media Channels you will find HERE

I would love to hear from you! If you learned something from this episode, why not to share it in your Stories and don´t forget to tag us (@personaltrainer_turo) so we can share some love.

Here timestamps:

Jordan Lips & Turo Podcast


  • Dieting plateaus. 05:12
    • Starting out in the online coaching world.
    • Diet plateaus and reverse dieting.
  • What is a plateau and what to do? 07:59
    • Normalize for the first starters.
    • Define what a plateau is.
    • Three options for weight loss.
    • The first option is the definition of plateau.
    • Mindful fat loss phase for yourself.
    • How to handle a plateauing diet.
  • Dealing with the individual in front of us. 14:19
    • Two camps of coaching, physiological and practical.
    • The two buckets of coaching.
    • People need to be more aware of their psychological state.
    • Diet breaks vs calorie cycling.
    • Reverse dieting and the benefits of eating more.
    • Eating very little while eating little.
  • We are way too sure about our numbers. 20:38
    • Everyone is way too sure about their numbers.
    • Calculating calories with too much certainty.
  • Focusing on what’s actually happening. 22:59
    • Stop with expectations and focus on what's actually happening.
    • An internal audit of actions.
    • The three-step approach to weight loss.
    • How to deal with low blood sugar levels.
  • Reverse dieting vs. egos. 27:45.
  • Reverse dieting and gaining weight. 34:14
  •  metabolic adaptation is a real thing. 35:57
  • The benefits of adding calories slowly. 41:07
  • Reverse dieting and positive outcomes. 47:48
  • How to get out of plateau. 50:33

Thank you for listening.



Hey torlon Can you hear me? I can't I couldn't hear you yet right I don't hear you. Now. Now I do. Now you do. Morning. How are you? Where are you? I'm in Italy. I do live in Italy. Awesome. Very cool. Yeah, not morning. No, it's afternoon. It's like it's 230 for me, but for you, it's wherever you live, whether you live in I'm in Texas. It's 730 Yeah. Oh, it's 730 so early morning for you. Yeah, no, but i Are you are you more like a morning person or? Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, me too. I love to do everything like late nights are big struggle, but saying hey, I wrote to DM in Instagram. Do you have would you like to do Instagram Live at the same time? Do you have possibility with that phone or something? Or should we just record a podcast? I can do? I can do Instagram Live at the same time? Yeah, sure. Because I was just thinking, you know that if we are having some conversation, then we can have some more content. Yep, that's a good idea. For for you know, I just hit the my ultra microphone for my phone. So it should be quality a little bit better. Are you going to Can I Instagram Live from my computer? No. I have no idea. I don't think I can I have my computer but I can't go live from computer Facebook I think is working but if I go Instagram Live, it's on my phone. But I have no idea. Can I can I add how I can add you there do you have Do you know how to how to make it like that we are can you invite me during life or I have to start at life and then I can invite you. Yeah, you start the live and then I'm gonna join and I'll ask to join all right, then I will start life or you want to start an invite me. Now you gotta go ahead. I'm I'm I'm on your page. So I'm ready. When you are. Alright. What I put all right now it should be on and I just requested to join all right right. There we go. Um, just want to make sure there's no echo. Okay, I don't hear any echo here on my tune don't hear you're now into if you wouldn't hear me on here. I don't I don't hear you. Okay. It says I don't I just don't want it to be an echo. Yeah, I saw your perfectly Yeah, let me put headphones in and then I and then we'll be good to go. Yeah. All right. Hey Jase. Good to see you in life. Recording another podcast and doing it the same time Instagram life so so we're going to talk about about little bit, weight loss plateaus, reverse dieting and some other fitness stuff. So if you have any Instagram if you have any, any questions you want to ask me or children or anything, just let us know and we will try to answer what we can but we are actually recording a podcast episode for my paid mental fitness podcast and, and Jordan, you're ready. I'm ready and it should be good to go. Not no more echo perfect. Or Instagram and Instagram Live peeps. Then I will start recording and recording in progress. So awesome. I have amazing guest today Jordan lead leaps in my podcasts. We are going to talk about a little bit weight loss plateaus, reverse dieting. And some other random fitness fitness stuff. So hopefully you will enjoy it and But before getting started children tell little bit about yourself, who you are and what you're doing, where you live and what you do. Yeah, I'm a personal trainer, nutrition coach. Been a personal trainer for a long time in person. And I owned the gym for a little bit and then COVID hit and I moved into the online space and really really enjoyed that a lot. I work with, with people one on one on a wide range of health related goals. I really enjoy coaching people for hypertrophy specifically. That doesn't mean it needs to be advanced at all. And so now I run a group program a little bit lower cost option where we just do programming for hypertrophy really focused on like bang for your buck not spending your whole life in the gym making it a little bit more accessible in terms of you know, it not being 590 minute workouts a week so that that emphasis on more of a minimum effective dose more on efficiency versus, you know, optimal. That's definitely where my passion is with my own life and also what I like to teach and coach helping people get you know, good results. You know, whenever build muscle gets stronger, all that stuff without spending your whole life in the gym. Yeah, no, I love it the time and that's why I relate so much with you because I think we are we have that kind of same approach both of us. There's a life to live and fitness is even it's a big part of our life. It's still it shouldn't be the only thing in life and and that there are a lot of ladder things and you should be able to insert also life while making progress best possible progress with your efforts. So so we how we know it's others like we were we have been in a same coaching membership. And that's how we I think first I met like with Jordan site yet that's that's a couple years ago. And since then I've been following and really really seeing your what your stuff you're doing and really, really enjoy your content and you have podcasts as well. Right. And I was actually listening your podcast and really enjoyed your conversation as I thought that I want to get you in myself as well. Alright, yeah, and those were, those were good times and i i that is obviously how we know each other and you have gone on to do amazing, amazing things. I mean, both of us were like, I think I don't know, I don't know your whole story at the time. But I recall that like a lot of the people in that group Jordan sites like online mentorship. We were people who had been in the space and been working with people but it was like it felt like it was a bunch of people that were new to working online. And it's been crazy just to see you just blow up you've been doing awesome so that's so cool to see like just that I mean both of us felt like we were just starting out at that time and so really really cool to see even do an amazing job. Yeah, thank you. You know, it's it's and this is like something like what do you see like there are obviously always in those kinds of groups. There are many many people that you don't they don't get maybe success in the beginning but probably basically everybody who I know who I see consistently doing the job what they know keep posting keep helping people for free. What is the best way to grow social media, at least in some point they have had some form of success in in online coaching or any other by any other part of life. So that is that's so amazing to see. And it's not only about coaching part it's It's in everything you do in your life that once you don't like Jordan xiety is loving to say that once you don't give up you can paint this thing. So I wanted to talk a little bit with you about diet or weight loss plateaus and reverse dieting. You had an amazing reverse dieting conversation with Eric Eric Drexler. Drexler if I pronounced it right, my English is not so perfect but I really enjoyed that conversation. And, and But before getting no like before getting deeper on that reverse dieting conversation, I would love to know like how you when you see that you've been you've worked with the people who have a plateau what what you are what kind of advice you are going to keep for them. Yeah, so that wasn't everybody who tries to lose fat at some point will meet some form of resistance at some point where things aren't going as well. You know, the idea that you go into fat loss phase, you pick a calorie amount, you start doing it and you just ride off into the sunset and lose all the weight you wanted. And it just goes perfectly without any adjustments is, you know, rarely the case. And so, you know, at some point there's a fork in the road where decisions need to be made about what you want. To do, because maybe fat loss slows down or stops altogether. And so that certainly does happen. Let's just normalize that for the first starters here. And I think I think the important there's some like I always view this like as like some form of a flowchart. Like where there's like we have to start with certain questions, and then we can move on to other questions. And I think the important thing for a lot of people to understand is when you let's say you go three weeks, four weeks without losing weight, like we have to define what a plateau is. I'm not talking about three daily weigh ins in a row where you didn't lose weight. I'm not even talking about one week on average. For me I don't even we don't even talk about making adjustments for at least two to four weeks. I mean two weeks would be the absolute minimum. That would have to be somebody on like an actual timeline. For some reason that we've decided there's a timeline which isn't always the best plan but whatever. And if you are not losing weight over that period of time, like you're not in a calorie deficit, and I'm not trying to be annoying with that statement, but we have to operate from that point of when you're not in a deficit anymore. We could talk about why that is we can talk about you know, we can go into the physiology and metabolism side of it. But you we need to start with that because some people will be like Oh, I'm not losing weight in a deficit, or I've been in a deficit for four weeks. I'm not losing weight. And I think it's just important to just start with, you're not in a deficit. And so what do we now do with that information that we all just need to foundationally get on the same page, but you're not in a deficit anymore. So from that point, we only ever have three options. I mean, you it's the same options you have all the time. And it's again, they sort of sound like simple things, but I think we'll get to kind of where people can go kind of off the rails a little bit but you only ever have the same three options. You can either eat less, right or move a little bit more aka try and recreate a deficit, try and open up that deficit a little bit more. You can stay with what you're doing, be a bit more patient and see what happens right sometimes you're not being patient enough. Sometimes maybe it's been two or three weeks and you know, maybe there's some whoosh coming or maybe you haven't been super consistent and instead of making a change to the plan, you're gonna like just buckle down and make sure that buckle down but like do an internal audit of am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? So option two is changed nothing about the plan and to be a little bit patient. And option three is eat a little bit more. And that's kind of something we're gonna talk about today because I say that and then people are you're against reverse dieting I thought and and so you only ever have three options, you can eat less, which you know, to push the deficit greater and you can eat the same and be a bit more patient or you can eat more and I would frame that not in a pursuit of fat loss. As a form of taking a mental break from this. And so those are three options that I will just make sure that we're all on the same page. There is no fourth option there is no eat more so I can hack my metabolism there is no more like well, I'll just cut out carbs so I can or I can intermittent fast or there's no there's I'm going to eat less and make a deficit. I'm going to eat the same I'm going to be patient, I'm going to eat more and I'm going to take a break. And I think that that's a very important place to begin in terms of the discussion with a client it's just making sure that those are the we're all on the same page. Those are the only three options that we ever have. Yeah. Oh, this this is this is exactly like most of the people like the first that is the definition like that I get I'm sorry you get also like messages that you know, oh my god I gained two kilos scale weight when I eat a little bit more in two weeks that is it. Is that going to be fat or weight or what is going on? Or then you know that I haven't lost weight for two weeks. It's not it's not that's not the plateau yet. So then it really it's like not us at first what is the definition of plateau and when it really is that average like how you are measuring it. Like there are so many ways how to do it like like I said myself I try to I kind of do kind of mindful fat loss phase at the moment for myself and and really like trying to focus next and even not counting calories accurately, but have seen that average scale rate is going down and if I really think it and if I'm 100% honest with all my actions what I'm doing I'm getting what I'm what I'm what I'm how my accidents have been aligned with, with the goal so so probably I'm eating three 400 calories less per day what my maintenance is and that is leading around pound per week or 0.4 kilos per week. Average weight loss within past four or five weeks and that is what you can expect and if I know that if I know that I need to go to I gotta go to I'm going out for a weekend having a boy's weekend having maybe some drinks and and some other stuff. It's progress is not it's it's still there. But it's not going to be as fast as my actions on the line and it's really hard face. So what I wanted to really talk about is like that, obviously that is the number one option, but I think most people still think that they are like it's okay, I gotta eat less and move more. But I, I really think that it's okay. For some cases, it might make sense. But for most cases, that's probably especially in a long term. That's the worst strategy you can actually have. Because the question is that how low you can go yeah, you're saying so now so keep keep going with that keep going because I might hook I might poke around with that. So you're saying okay, so what if what, how would you? How would you handle that situation? If somebody's plateaued? I mean, there's which of those three options is is the one that I mean? Obviously you have to have to hit we'd love to have somebody here to answer that question. Yeah, no, it's it's no but like you said that it's especially it depends obviously, how long you have been, what is your activity level and how long you have been in deficit? Like what I what I if I let's say that I'm I'm working if it's three two, I would say not more than if it's four months, that's already unless you have at least a person who have like really a lot of weight to lose, but for most of the people I would say three to four months in a deficit is a very long time and and after that even you still have some weight to lose, probably, from my opinion, consider at least an option to go away especially if you need to plateau. Yeah, yeah, I think I think we have to deal with the individual in front of us like you're saying, I think there's some some things that are worth noting. I think there are things we do as coaches that fall into two camps. There are things that that we do as coaches but we help our clients do that, that have a physiological advantage, that that are actually like changes to the plan, like creating a deficit or you know, things that are actually going to physically change the results. And then there are practical things that we do to help our clients succeed in the long term, like encouraging them to occasionally take a break. Like you said, okay, this person has been in deficit for four months. That's that's a long time. Like, there's no amount of time that your body's going to like some that something happens. And I know you're not saying that, but I'm just saying but it's not like oh, I've been in a deficit for X amount of time and now my body has had some sort of response to the amount of time that it has been undernourished. But you might say, practically, I'm dealing with somebody who's been in a restrictive mindset, maybe a little tired, not feeling great, not in the best headspace. And for that period of time for four months I might be dealing with somebody who, if I want long, long, long term success, that what's probably best for them is to psychologically take a break. Now that circumstance happens all the time. And again, it's not even it doesn't really come down to some specific timeframe. It certainly comes down to the individual I people that are in deficits for eight straight months and they do great and I have other people that after three months, they're like, I probably do better with a two week off or a week off or you know, some form of a diet break and air quotes. But those are, there's two buckets, those are practical things. They have nothing to do with optimizing metabolism or optimizing hormones or optimizing. None of that it has to do with psychology and that that doesn't I'm not undermining the benefit there. I think there's a ton of benefit there. I mean, I think a lot of people need to be more so considering their psychological state, how much they're enjoying things, how shitty they feel on average, but a lot of people aren't they're making decisions based on what they think is going to like some somehow hack their metabolism or something like that. Like it's diet breaks. Like everything, we're talking about a diet break. So if we look at this on like a timescale, a refeed, a diet break, a maintenance phase, or reverse diet, they all are the same thing. They're all periods of time, where you're eating more, right a refeed was like this, like two day refeed a diet break is like a seven day refeed like a maintenance phase is like a one month refeed or reverse diet. It's just, you know, eating more, they're all these periods of eating more, and so that we know that none of them none of the periods of eating more, have a lasting physiological benefit. They make you feel better while you're eating more. And when you go back to eating less, you feel like you're eating less and so we need to make sure that we're choosing the best strategy for the person in front of us. And some people do really great without diet breaks. Some people do great with diet break. Some people do really great with calorie cycling, where they have to higher days and some lower days some people do really great with three months and a deficit one month out of a deficit some people do great in perpetuity never getting out of a deficit and so and just like hitting consistency and getting some momentum and all that stuff, and so I just think that we need to be making that we like me and you are doing something wrong. But I think as an industry, we like need to stop, we need to start just looking at the individual what's going to help them be the most successful based on what we know about them. Not that there's something broken about their metabolism, and we could talk about that a bit more about what some of the misconceptions are, but none of the decisions you're making in that moment. Have to do with your metabolism. They have to do with you as an individual and how you're feeling and what's going to make you ultimately the most successful. Yeah. Now that is that is that is so well said and I wanted to like now, now we are that we call it a bit that what I originally wanted to talk with you is it's about reverse dieting and that way that eating more that what kind of benefits you already paid a bit that's about it like that. It's it's not that Then like if I if if you see that you started to eat more you started to lose weight. And what is what is actually what is going on and like it's not it's never going to be some long term strategy, but it's that goes there is you can't break those make energy balance like that. It's still that energy balance. calorie deficit is the way how you lose weight or fat but but it's it says that breathing that you have a logical part like that if somebody is eating like what is most common like I get the people like for example like one was like look maintenance calories should be 2400 coming to me starting and saying that claiming I'm obviously I can't know what he was doing before we started to work together but saying that eating 1000 2400 calories not making any progress making progress at the gym and I was like Okay, let's see first what you are eating before we making anything says they're telling what you're actually eating and it was very little amount of food and but then but I kind of beans every once in a while and that is something like that, you know we can discuss when you eat very little. And you might you don't even recognize but you might eat like a lot more calories than you should be eating and that is leading that you are not actually in a deficit or then then other aspects like like you already touched a little bit is that you are actually your energy out like how many like obviously it could be there might be some little adaptation, which is probably not going to be as big as most people think. But it's us that that you are not as active even even you take some you might take some steps but you are not like we are here in Italy we talk with the hands and are using Facebook in presence. So those kinds of things they are when you eat very little for longer period of time. They have been adapted a little bit. So what do you would say for someone? Some that kind of person like us and the question is that if you eat if you are eating very much below your maintenance calories and you are not you are not making progress. So what is what is what steps you would start with somebody like that who is who is not getting progress while eating very little calories when maintenance calories should be higher. i There's a ton of time to go into the one thing that I'm I'm feeling very passionate about right now to just discuss with myself. with clients is we are way we everyone we are way too sure about our numbers. We're way too confident with all the numbers that go into creating our expectations. So when when this person comes to you and comes to me, it's these people, you know, whatever the circumstance happens to everyone were at some point they're like, well think about all the assumptions in terms of how certain we are about these numbers. So first you put your number and you put your you put your height, weight, age and activity level into a calorie calculator. So your first guess was activity level. That was your first guess and you know that you will by definition, it's not perfect no matter what, even if you make the most accurate guess on a calculator. It's not perfect. Second, that calculator doesn't take into account any genetic factors. And then it spits out a number. And you take that number and you assume Yep, this is exactly my number. Now that assumption is already potentially incredibly far off based on the activity level that you almost certainly have overestimated because just in general, based on the tons and tons of research we drastically radically overestimate how much we move. Then this thing doesn't take into account your genetics. And then you take this number, and you then go and you start eating a certain amount of calories you're eating under that and that number you are so sure that that's how much you're eating. So you're so sure this is what your metabolism is and then you're so sure that this is what you're what you are eating. And there's so much variation and uncertainty baked into all of that. And then you're like, Well, I'm not losing weight and it's like, Man, I'm not losing weight. The calorie calculator said 2400 I'm eating 1400 It's like number one, your metabolism is almost certainly not 2400 I'm not sure what it is but you're looking at that with too much certainty, then you're almost certainly not eating 1400 You're looking at that with way too much certainty now I'm not coming at people like they're lying. It's not about that. It's just that we are all off that calorie counting house inherent variation we all of us on average will underestimate. Even if you're not under estimating, it's very likely that there's still variation baked into that process. And I think that we need to stop with the expectations and start with focusing on what's actually happening. Like instead of I shouldn't be losing weight, you know, like this is what this person is saying to you. They're like Well, I'm 2400 is my maintenance. I'm eating 1400 I should be losing weight. Instead of the wasting time on I should be losing weight. We need to think about why we're not to losing weight. And the answer is never I promise you there's a bunch of lists. There's a bunch of answers on the list of reasons you might not be losing weight, but not eating enough is not one of them. And so no matter what if you're not losing weight, I promise you the answer never has anything to do with you not eating enough. That's like saying, I'm trying to save money. And the problem is I'm just not spending enough like that just is just math. It's just there's a plenty of reasons why you might not be losing weight but not eating enough is not one of them. And so you need to stop with the I shouldn't be losing weight but I'm not in start being and start looking at it from I'm not losing weight because I'm not in a deficit. And what am I going to do about that not fretting about the shoulds and the Oh my friend who's a similar body weight to me she loses weight on this many calories or just stop deal with your situation individually. And that starts with something I know that you would probably agree with this starts with just assessing not in an erotic way but just double checking, triple checking that, like you said, you're not saying you're reading 14 but missing a whole bunch of stuff. And so just start by doing an I would say an internal audit of your actions where you look inward and your am I actually doing what I think I'm doing. Let me just first double check with that. Let's just got a little bit of a zoomed in look at what I'm actually doing. And that's kind of what you said as a coach, you'd be like, Hey, let's let's first take a look at what you're actually eating. And more often than not what ends up happening is the person is under tracking on some level maybe not that much. Maybe they're doing just fine. But I really feel like I have a lot of clients recently who wants they they got rid of what this like mentality of expectations of oh, I should be losing. They started to look at their own situation and they're like okay, like maybe I'm maybe I'm tracking a number that feels low to me. Maybe like I'm 150 pounds and I shouldn't I'm eating 1400 calories, and I really think that that should be causing weight loss, but it's not. And then we do an internal audit, we look at their actions and they are tracking fairly accurately. And we're both sitting there like, mathematically, I would suspect that this would work, but it's not and so what do you do with that situation? What you do is you say to yourself, how does this client feel? Look at their biofeedback? Are they hungry? Are they tired? Are they food focused? Are they actually portraying like a, like a phenotype of being in a deficit to actually look like someone sound like someone who's in a deficit? No, often times they aren't. And because they expect to be eating, eating and now they're eating 14 they expect to be losing weight and they're not but if you just took their situation as an individual, and you offered them those same three options. It's like could you eat a little bit less if you wanted to, by the way, I'm not there's no I never make a suggestion. I'm not this isn't like suggesting people eat less. So that's an option that people have in this moment. Quite often people feel okay, eating less. The only thing that's stopping them from feeling okay, eating less is this idea that they shouldn't have to and so a lot of people are like, you know, Greg knuckles. Ironically, Eric Trexler is co host on the on the stronger by science he was talking like he's 220 and he's like when I need to lose weight ie 1800 calories, guys. 220 fairly active eating 1800 calories. And he says when people hear that, they're like, Dude, you there's that's crazy low. You must be so hungry. You must feel like CIT you must feel terrible. And he says to me, he's like, I feel fine. And I lose at a fairly moderate pace. That would tell me that this actually isn't a huge deficit for me. And I feel fine and I'm not hungry. And so we, you know, this expectation that he's going to feel terrible at 1800 because he's 220 and that's eight times body weight or whatever. We need to get rid of that start dealing with your own. I have a lot of people that could if I was like, Hey, could you be fine cutting 200 calories, which I probably would never say as abruptly but they would feel fine, except the number and the the number would feel low and it would feel way below their expectations. And maybe I shouldn't have to go that low and I shouldn't have to. It's like you do you do. I'm not telling you to go do that. But I am telling you that our only option if you want to keep losing is to eat less. There is nothing in the upward eating more direction that's going to save you from returning back to this situation at some point. Yeah, no, I I established it. It's it's like you said it's a it's a little bit controversial. Ultimately, you have to if you want to get out of that or you have to create a bigger deficit, but that's why I know there is a science between like the diet breaks and using Legos I'm I actually I love it depends obviously on person but I love using reverse dieting or kind of that kind of approach. For some people not it's not it's not going to be right for everyone but like many many people who I work with are some yo yo dieters who have had like a longer dieting they have been years at least in the in the mindset of trying to lose weight. Or some of them some women told that they have been diet since six years. Since here's like 40 years, they are now almost 50s and that their mom have put them in a diet when they were six or seven years old. And since then, it has been always in their mind that I need to keep losing weight. And it's always it's often it's that cycle of restricting, regaining, restricting either sometimes it's a carbs, basically every kind of diet and for those people I said what if? What if why you wouldn't start actually looking how much you can eat without gaining starting to gain too much fat. And and that is like what you bought your Dell and often what happens is that if those those desktops like I said if that maintenance calories would be way over 2000 and then somebody's eating 1400 As if that it 1600 Then we after go 4008 and see how it started to happen. And usually what happens is that energy levels like they are getting higher, maybe scale rate is going up, but and they might even start to actually losing weight. So kind of praying that plateau. I'm not telling that what is what is actually happening is that either it's it's a combination that they are now actually more accurate. They are not maybe having those kinds of pinch or BNCs or cravings what they had before what they they were not even recognizing or they are simply just that little bit more active, having better quality workouts when they are actually allowing themselves to give more energy. And I know there's probably if that if you look science, there is no not very much like benefits of doing the like that you should you got to do reverse dieting but that's my my take on on reverse dieting What what are you using reverse dieting or what what thoughts Yeah, I love I love everything you just said and I actually would I would if I have a client coming to me he says he or she is eating 1200 calories I'm and they're you know, 200 pounds. I'm just making this up. Like we're gonna start I'm gonna be okay, cool. We're gonna let's start at 2000 calories like I will do what you would do with just was just like, hey, we're gonna aim like I just think it's important to disentangle what you're doing with what's happening. What you're doing is you're giving them permission to eat more. You're encouraging them to consistently not in a binge restrict cycle. on a on a consistent day to day basis. Aim for higher calories. And I say aim for not eat because they are aiming at higher calories and probably on the whole actually eating less because you've through the permission you've given them it's a weird word, but you've you've encouraged them to instead of aiming at 13 Aim at 18 Because at 1300 calories. A couple things happen. One, they never hit that. Or two they sometimes hit that but sometimes they're way way over. Oh that's not great psychologically and on the net. They're probably eating more total calories on average. And so what you've done is like instead of doing 13 sometimes and 3000 other times, let's do 19 All the time, which might be the same amount of food might be less average food, but it feels to them like it will not feel stem it very often will help them get out of that restrictive mindset because it's a more consistent feeling of eating more instead of eat less, eat less, eat less, binge eat less, eat less eat less binge. This feels like consistent. A lot of people will report oh my god, it feels like so much food. Oh my god, it feels like so much food because on a day to day they've never had this much food occasionally they've binged and had drinks and gone out and had fries and and the burgers and whatever, that's all good, but it's all fine. But You mean those moments are much higher and calorie offsets those times? And so what you just said in terms of hey, I have a client comes eating what you know to be not true. They're not actually eating that on a very consistent, I'm not going to commit that to my clients because they are always they know it. They are right they have right I don't I can't tell if I if you know that you tell you as a coach that you are lying. Right, right, right. And sometimes it's very easy to it's just very easy to think you're eating a certain amount and forget that this missing stuff and you know you're kind of off hand what a lot of people say is I'm eating 1200 What they mean is 1200 is in my fitness pal that's what's on my fitness pal. That's not actually what's happening. That's like the thing they're aiming at what your situation often, maybe not that I wouldn't put a percentage on it but often that that leads to some positive things, whether it's fat loss or not. It leads to some positive things that you know can help them get out of that restrictive mindset maybe you can help them get out of that binge restricted you can open them up to like you said better workouts and feeling better and and getting out of that binge restrict cycle. And it can it can have very positive outcomes. The reason that I've been on like this little like that, you know been talking about this a bit is that there are people out there that like I just think it's important that we all understand what's happening. So you like you just said we were like I know that what's happening is that and their average calories are not going up that they might be going down. But at the very least we're getting some a bit more of a consistent calorie intake which can, which for somebody who's been binging and restricting can be very mentally healthy for them. For some people in you know, calorie cycling is fine, but for some people who've been in this like very binge restrict cycle, getting them some continuity, eating an amount that feels good, and getting consistent energy levels not it's can be it can be an amazing, amazing thing and that's awesome. You know, that's what's happening. You know that you haven't done anything you know? That they didn't increase 700 calories a day, and now they're losing weight like you know that physiologically that hasn't happened now. My issue is only if you are not you but if a coach is telling the person that that's what's happening, or that they've used that physiological ly to sell people to get them into the program. And the third context, I guess, is for those people who do this, and they actually just start gaining weight, because they're, for whatever reason, this process of aiming at higher calories trying to be more, you know, eating 1900 Every day instead of 1200. Sometimes 5000 And other times has actually put them in a net calorie surplus. Now what happens is they start to gain weight. And the coach thinks, I don't I'm not really sure what the coach thinks to be totally honest with you. That okay, this person's metabolism has been damaged, and they really need to stick this out and they need to keep going. They need to keep gaining and they need to push calories higher and this will fix them. I have a huge issue with that. Because for every one person that you and I are talking about that that joins a group that is like ah reverse dieting, this is what I need and find some success. There's 10 People who gained weight they didn't want to because they were told their metabolism was broken and what they needed to do was eat more to fix it. And so for those people I speak now, they there are so many of them and they end up being our clients at some point where they're like I gained 30 pounds in a reverse diet because I thought my metabolism was broken and my coach just told me to keep going and keep eating more and keep pushing calories up. I promise you guys if like metabolic adaptation, we can talk you know we have we have some time here if we want to talk about it, but metabolic adaptation is a real thing. If you lose weight your body adapts you gain weight, your body adapts. A lot of people forget that second part. If you lose weight, and then you gain all of it back and you lose weight you gain all of that. Every time you gain that weight. You undo the adaptations all the way down to people who we studied on the biggest loser who lost hundreds of pounds in the most unrealistic way. We studied them 610 years later, and what we saw is that the people who had no more metabolic adaptation are the people who gained all the weight back. So if you've lost weight, and then you've gained it back I promise you whatever adaptations happened on the way down, they're gone on the way up, you know you aren't, you can't under eat your way to weight gain. And so if you are somebody who's gained weight and you're overweight, let's say or you have body fat that you want to lose, your issue is not metabolic adaptation. You are your your metabolism is operating at full capacity actually, because you're you've been in a surplus. And so if you are a person and you you hear this podcast and you're in a reverse diet or you think about a reverse diet and you're consistently gaining weight doing that, I promise you stop stop doing that. I'm not saying mentally there can't be a decent outcome from from pushing calories up more but you're not fixing metabolism and so your your metabolism is running just fine if you're gaining weight. Later, later edition sorry to interrupt you. I just want to go back to what you what you said that like if it's in a long term, like right in the beginning like it's so totally totally normal. If you start to eat if you are a person who is eating very little and start adding more calories so you can I can tell from experience and it's around then. Then days to weeks your scale right because you are you aren't you might have a little bit more food in your stomach in your system. Your body holds temper a little bit more water so that that scale rate is going to spike within first day so don't and you have to really like if you are someone you have to trust the process you have to eat. Allow yourself to eat more calories, or at least I would say 234 weeks if it's not that it's that is you're not doing any damage within three four weeks. Let's say that in the worst case, you are starting to eat more in a social period of time you are not making progress but if you are like you start adding calories you eat more and after a second days. Oh my god, I gained three pounds or four pounds or like a two kilos weight. I'm out of here that is that is not going to you're not going to get any benefits of withdrawal. So it's, I'm sorry, you meant like in a long term that weight gain says that somebody is concerned that you know you started to eat more untamed weight like having like a weekend off and stepped on the scale on Monday. Like everybody's gaining weight in so short period of time. Totally agree. I'm talking I'm talking like a period of time that you can in a very realistic headspace deem a trend, not like I'm up a pound or two over the last two weeks like that might be just like you said more food in you more glycogen, a little bit of water. Maybe your training is better and all of a sudden you know that brings some glycogen stores as well and all of those things I definitely think it's worth worth the note of zoom out and let's look at this slide over a slightly longer term. The one thing I just would say just for people listening is the reverse dieting comes in different shapes and sizes like reverse dieting is a term that is just made up by the way. It's not like a this is not like a very scientific term. So if like the the what a lot of people here is I'll post about reverse dieting, and then they'll comment with a context that I totally agree with. And so the context is, okay, Jordan. So at the end of my deficit, I shouldn't reverse diet back to maintenance. It's like that the like, for me the definition of reverse dieting is there's just one thing it's I'm at the end of a deficit. And I need to now find my new maintenance at my new body weight, shape, size activity level, like I need to, like reversed it just means getting rid of the deficit. And so that you should you absolutely have to do I mean, you know, like at some point your deficits over and you should find your new maintenance. I think that that's great. Everyone's got to do that. The other context that you and I talked about is taking the client and having them aim for higher calories like you might, you might let them frame it like a reverse diet, but you're you're taking that, hey, I'm eating 1200 Calorie a person and saying, let's eat 1800 And you know, in the back of your mind that this is very likely still less than they were eating but might feel really great and might be a really good net on their, their eating habits, mental state, all of that stuff. And so I think that just we're just we need to define when someone's like, hey, what do you think reverse dieting and like in what context for what goal? And so if it's like, yeah, I'm at the end of a deficit. I want to get to my new maintenance. Great, you should do that. If that's what we're calling reverse diet. That's freaking awesome. In that context of, hey, I'm done with my deficit. I want to get to my new maintenance. The, if we look at on the flowchart on that side, just talking about that context. There's no real benefit to doing it super slowly, but I'm actually not against doing it kind of slowly. Like there's just because there's no physiological advantage to adding 50 calories a week going superduper slow, doesn't mean that there isn't a time and you you know this that you might err on the slower side if I have a client who's has a history of binge restrict that is really afraid of weight gain, let's say like really doesn't want to gain weight, and he or she feels fine. Like biofeedback wise, they're like, I'm not I don't feel terrible right now. Then we might be like, okay, you don't feel terrible. You don't want to gain weight back. You have a history of flip flopping big calorie swings. Maybe we'll just go a little slower. If I have a client who feels terrible and isn't afraid of a couple pounds of weight gain, all right, we're going to add calories faster and so I'm not against going on the slower end I'm against going slower than you need to if I if you have a client who doesn't feel very good, is still losing weight and feels really bad and wants to get out of the deficit and you're like, Man, I know we got to go 50 calories a week Sorry, dude. Like that, obviously, I think is not the best plan but I have no problem with going on the slower end in that process. If that's what you and you and your coach feel is best for, you know, as it says to summarize basically that if you are if the reverse dieting, it's a tool what you could be using, but there is no basically no additional except like those what we talked like that like kind of data that that like physical like physical like emotional difference. Like if you are someone who is like really scared of gaining blitzscale weight or you are very tough, what is going to happen? Am I going to gain fat? Am I going to be like, like someone who have lost a lot of weight. And then then you know, they know that they in the past they had had a like have had like really bad behaviors and they don't want to become that same person as they were before. And then is that okay? Then you know, but you don't want to be in a diet all the time. So then it's like kind of weaning some time doing it and learning and seeing it that okay, I'm not I'm not going to be the same person what I was before but basically you could be going like if you have a if you have a either you're in a deficit and you could go like right away next day into your maintenance if you are voted to be but in when you are doing it taking a little bit time with the reverse dieting or whatever you call it like raising your calories closer to that maintenance. It says the tool to use what is how to get it so I'm I'm then I'm happy to hear but I got that we have Grindr, or we have actually we think it's exactly the same it says that. How you how you always tell it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think that that just that if there's a take home from today, it's just to be a little bit less emotionally attached to what you think should be happening, and just live in reality and be like, Hey, I'm not losing weight. That means I'm not in a deficit. Now what am I going to do with that information? And I promise you all of your options of things to do. The one that's not on there is fix my metabolism by eating more. Now you might eat more to take a break and like eat more because further weight loss be very clear with a lot of people when I do those three options in the weight loss plan. Like if somebody gets a plateau and I'm like, Hey, you could eat less we could lower calories. You could move a bit more which there's there's some there's not you know, sometimes that's not always the best plan, especially someone who's already quite active. doesn't do a lot to go to it doesn't go from 1200 1200 steps to 1400 steps like is marginal difference from what we know in terms of huge movement efficiency and energy compensation. So often it's it's a calorie reduction in intake. When we look at those options, like sometimes people like I don't want to eat less and I'm like great like that is your only option if you want to lose more. You don't have to do that though. And very, very often it's about recognizing where it becomes not worth it for you anymore. And that's a lot of the A lot of times people are think that there's a way around the eating less part and there just isn't and so it that's where reverse dieting comes into play on those people because like hey, I have a trick for you that doesn't involve the eating less and the being hungrier. It's it actually involves eating more and feeling great. And so yeah, that that that I think a lot of times a lot of what I've done in the last couple years with people that get to plateaus is be a bit more you know, just dealing with them as an individual but just certainly like framing like hey, these are our options and at some point as you start to eat less as you start to lose more weight as you get leaner, the Eat less option becomes less and less worth it because it's just you don't want to do that because life sucks. And so I just, I just I'm very happy when people end up being like, you know what, I hear you these are my only options and I don't want to do that option anymore. And so I'm either going to be patient or let's pivot and let's let's work on you know, maintaining what I've done already. Yeah, yeah, it was that is that is exactly what I what I feel like like you just said, when when I have somebody and then you know they are like obviously really worried like, you know, there is a plateau I'm not seeing any progress that what should I be doing? And then like, really, like you said, having that conversation with absentia, and if you're like, you know you have been you have made a good amount of progress and you have been kind of being in the mental state of losing weight for several months or even years. And then you are like telling them what you would say if you we would focus that on something else. And even that goal is still at some point to lose fat but for let's say that taking taking photos for workouts, feeding your body more and seeing how much you are actually able to eat and meet the purpose I think that is the that makes up. What makes for most of my clients like it's it's so eye opening to dissect that okay, you want to still you have still like in your mind you still need to lose weight, but or lose fat but when you are when you are allowing yourself maybe first time in years, you are telling it okay, I'm not even trying to lose weight I want to maintain my weight and that is then they are like starting to feel like that. Okay, then I do it for a month or two. But after that it often happens like holy shit, I feel so much better than ever in my life. And do I really need to lose weight more on that is like okay, maybe I do it for shorter periods of time or totally different like, what what in the past and those are those huge realizations what often happens? When you are actually learning to take like, using maintenance periods and taking some diet breaks? And that's it's more like a mental break, what is what is helping in how to break those plateaus and mental breaks can be awesome. And then that's there's no there's no, we're not here to make them sound like they're useless. They're, they're good. They can be awesome. They can be great. I just have an issue with the framing of them in a way that it's you're waving a magic wand and that the defense that will if someone was here who like pitches reverse dieting quite often the defense is Why are you guys why do you guys care so much about what is or is not happening physiologically if it works and my counter is occasionally people have a good outcome and I love when people have a good outcome people came to my page and like Hey, Jordan, I did this thing that you're talking about and I it worked out really great for me. And I'm like, That's awesome. There's 10 other people who did this and gained a whole bunch of weight they didn't want to and were told to keep going and told to keep pushing and they weren't doing it well enough. And you know, there's a couple of issues but the big one is I know that people have positive outcomes occasionally, you can get those people, the same people who are going to have a positive outcome when you lie to them. You could get them a positive outcome by being a little bit more upfront with them, like the people who you mentioned Hey 1200 and I give them 1800 And that situation has a happy ending we can get those people there happy ending without the the collateral damage of all the other people who didn't, you know, didn't need that approach or, you know, ended up gaining weight. They didn't want to I think the overall amount of people we can help and the overall overall amount of people that we can have not gained a whole bunch of weight they didn't want to like we can do better. It's not like for you know, just because somebody had a good outcome. I'm super happy for them, we can still get them that outcome by being a little bit more truthful with what's happening, hey, you weren't actually eating 1200 You know, let's work on aiming at a little bit higher. Let's be a little bit more consistent. Let's focus on gym and energy level and performance. And there's still a easy, not easy, but there's still an absolutely, totally practical way. To get those people a positive outcome without all the other people who are 20 pounds up in a reverse diet who are like I didn't want this over the last eight months or something. I think we can do better in terms of our ratio of getting successful people without the people gaining a ton of weight that didn't want to Yeah, but it's it's the I think it's the very easy way to market something you say that you start to eat more you lose are starting to lose weight and then then you add some hormones they're like that there is it's missing this part and this part and sales are coming in. So why do you mind telling the truth? Yeah, and then you can mark it the the one you know, your your one client who had this amazing transformation and and it's, you know, and the other 10 people they don't get talked about and it's unbelievable. I mean it's tough to I'm here selling you gotta eat less. You're here selling you got to eat more. I mean, I would pick your route any day of the week. Yeah, for sure. For sure. If you if it's like a it sounds more interesting I got but it's like really baby talk. Right? It's really like, pining because it's it would be so so easy to say that it really depends on so many situations like what is your dieting history, how long you have been in a deficit, what kind of schedule you have in overall you know, in a real life, like what is what makes the most sense and then, but lays it options are those three to get out of plateau and and most likely there is nothing nothing like obviously it could be that there is some drought issue some hormonal issues for a forum or some reason which are causing usually if you have been eating like very little they might or missing some nutrients they might cause some hormonal issues but in I would say that 90% At least it's about about being really honest and seeing what is actually happening and going on with your or food intake or other other things. What matters to like a sleep and stress and that kind of stuff. But it's it's not that complicated. It's actually quite simple. But obviously there are so many different kinds of things and emotions What are going on and and that is often where people get really confused. Yeah I think it's more empowering. I think at first the idea that maybe you maybe it's, it's, I rephrase this in a way that's compassionate, but like, at first the idea that it could be your fault and what I mean is like that it could be just that you're eating a bit more than you think you are or that you're not as consistent with your calories as you are like at first. That is disheartening. Like we don't it's difficult to take that in and so it's really easy to push externally and say oh something's wrong with my metabolize like something's happening to me. But I think once once you start to act upon the idea that it actually might be things you're doing, like, I always think the idea of personal responsibility should be empowering, not disheartening. Like it should, like even if even if it is that you've been doing something less good, like it's still empowering to know that it's in your hands, not in some magical damage to my metabolism that I you know, and I don't think I don't want to turn this into a weight loss is all personal responsibility. It sure is shit is not there's a ton of genetic environmental factors. Oh my god, this is not weight loss is not just personal responsibility. Hell no. But there is a personal responsibility column. There is a column of personal but there's a part of the pie chart that is personal responsibility. And so I think that it's, I think I've found that a lot of people are like, You know what, it was incredibly empowering to realize, Hey, I was eating 2500 On the weekends, and you know, I thought I was eating 1200 But I really wasn't and that's actually incredibly empowering. It's not disheartening, but it feels disheartening at first ya know, it's like like I said, I I had like I had I had a couple of weeks ago boys week and people were counting like the how many like you don't even think about it, but then you look in the morning like how many bottles of beer and wine what we had and then I was like, holy shit if you if I count this, I was just says made a total of I was counting like those calories I got like, I don't know 4000 calories per day sauce from beer and wine and everything so and then everything was eating and then you know, I'm thinking like that I didn't count accurately. But if I'm testing, you know, I have been so consistent for whole week and then having a two three days like that. It's I don't I don't have to wonder why I'm not seeing progress. Sure. What is this boy's weekend? Are you guys yeah, I'd be very early. We were we were having returned. Our old friends from Finland returned a 40 year ago. We supposed to do it already a year ago just to celebrate our birthday. I haven't seen for years and as now. At this age you don't you are not those meetings are we are living in different countries different cities and you have to organize at least six months to hit and and was a good to put week and then I had a lot of fun. Obviously not with exercise or nutrition wise but but those are not so good. Times. Good weekend, so So that's, that's how about you? Yeah, I have those weekends too. For sure. Definitely. I'm not I mean, I'm that I'm, I've been in I've been on all extremes of neuroticism and like counting every macro to do I'm not saying counting every macro to the gram is bad, but I just I've taken it very far. And I've been in a place where I've not enjoyed my life and I'm just not in that place right now. I'm in a very good place where I'm just, I don't have come full circle. I think I didn't come out of the womb feeling the way I feel right now which is more comfortable with my body not trying to look a certain way for anyone else and trying mostly to be healthy and that involves being healthy mentally. Which means you know, occasionally not worrying about certain things calories, alcohol, sleep my workouts, trying to really find and connect with what's going to make me mentally and physically that happiest long term, which usually means not taking it to the absolute extreme. Yeah, no, I'm exactly the same. I have never, never like to myself like really like focusing on I more focused on how I feel, and on overall health like in a long term what is like really for me, what matters at the moment obviously when I was younger, I was trying I was an athlete, professionalized hockey player and at the time was like more about athletic performance and but never like really never aim to get like really lean or visible laps or that kind of stuff that have never been it's now now it's more about like just feeling great and to be honest, that being at 41 and feeling probably the best ever in my life and being in that's just something what I what I do at the moment and it's it's like you said that it's not only about being perfect all the time. It's it's it you need to have some moments and things where you know that it's not going to be perfect, but just allowing yourself to enjoy life also and and sacrificing from from being perfect role model for fitness, or enjoyment. Yep, trying trying. Awesome. Thank you, Jordan for your time. Could you tell Steve for people where to find you how to work with you? Or what do you want to share? So I'm on Instagram, at Jordan lips fitness. You have a question? Shoot me a DM happy to chat with people. I run a group program. Everything's in my bio on Instagram. That's definitely best place to find me podcast, Instagram, all that good stuff. It's on there. Awesome. And you have also your podcast. I love listening. i You didn't mention it. I mentioned it. I love it. So what is it? What is the name of your podcast? It's called where optimal meets practical and that that tends to be the theme of the episodes. It's just you know, I'm I'm a nerd. I love figuring out you know what physiology and what the best way to do things is but, you know, we're trying to make it also practical for the individual and make sure that it's applicable and all of that stuff and so trying to find that happy middle ground. Awesome. Thank you for coming to my soul and tissue. Thanks for recording stopped. Awesome. I stopped that. Instagram. Cool, Sam. You're You're You're finished. You're not Italian? No, no, no, I'm from originally from Finland. Is there do you have that? Any any links? You want to add? Yeah, sure. I mean, I think you couldn't just I think I think you can connect my my link tree and you can just put Jordans stuff. Oh, yeah. I put that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can find it from your profile too, right. Or? Yeah, just the empathy but yeah, it's under motion. I don't know if I can if I can. Discard like when can I how can I post that live video? I don't know if I can post it. Yeah, I don't I don't know. I'm not a big I'm not big. I don't Instagram live much. No meat eater and now. Oh, okay. Now it's coming. I think it takes a second. Strength gross, you know if it's if I if I exist. Go for it. It's It's alright, I think it should be. Should be done now. And posting nice. If you can tag me I'll repost it. No, no, I will. I have I have tagged you there and it or if it's not going, it's an I will tag it. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks a lot. Do one. One wait. I gotta take one pictures too. Okay. Okay. I look good. Yeah, go ahead. All right. Thanks, man. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Good meeting you, man. You're doing good stuff. I appreciate you too. I love your stuff. And that was my pleasure. To have you thanks for your time and miscellany. That's thanks. Thank you. See you soon. Bye bye.